Now Mahmood's injured...

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Ernest

That's so true - playing for a county against another county side, is not the same as bowling to Hayden - Ponting, and the players you mention, the gulf is enormous.

It is true, thats why performances in the CC should largely be ignored.

Thats why Ramps can score thousands for Surrey but was hopeless in the test arena.

[Rachael]

Bowling to Hick and Ramps at county level is tougher than bowling to most of the England Test side in the Test arena.... and at county level you've also got guys like Sangakkara and Younis Khan... to say nothing of Div 2 batsmen like Harvey, Katich, Hussey and Langer (all averaging 80+ at the moment).

Take a look at the following recent Test match: http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/south...ch/250667.html

Now I'll concede immediately that Inzi, Yousuf and Kallis are tough to bowl at... but that's three players out of 22: the rest are mostly decent but are far from outstanding... and I'm pretty sure many county bowlers have been involved in games with better batting line ups - to a side built around a giant like Lara for instance!

[greg]

So if those players in that test are so bad how come Jacques Rudolph who couldn't get in the South African side and currently averages 73 for Yorkshire?

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Bowling to Hick and Ramps at county level is tougher than bowling to most of the England Test side in the Test arena.......

I wouldnt argue with that, they both had the technical ability to succeed at test level but not the mental strength.

In fact the standard of the county championship is far higher than many people give it credit for. The problem is it doesnt prepare cricketers for international cricket, there is little intensity in the game and depending on where you play the your stats can be artificially high or low. Too many mediocre players succeed too easily and a lot of the better players dont have great domestic records due to the lack of intensity.

The problem is our bowlers dont learn to bowl lines and lengths so when Bresnan and Ali and.... got called up by England last year for ODI games they couldnt land the ball within 2 yards of where they should and got hammered for it, yet there county records were good.

Mahmood, Anderson, Plunkett, Broad, Onions..... all suffer from the same problem.

Bell for example scored runs in the CC by waiting for the bad ball. The problem is in test cricket you dont get too many against the good sides and his batting was found to be one dimensional, in other words he couldnt impose himself on the opposition in the way that the likes of Pieterson, Vaughan (in tests), Trescothick can and the likes of Gower, Gooch, Smith and Lamb could.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

In fact the standard of the county championship is far higher than many people give it credit for.

Not universally, but true of the best County Cricket... and as a kid learning to bowl in County Cricket, the standard is more than high enough: the problem is not the standard... or the intensity... or the coaching.. or the availability of good advice - it's basically the lack of anything between the ears on the part of most of the kids.

Mahmood's a classic instance: seemingly transfixed by dreams of bowling like a latter day Waqar Younis, tearing in and sending down unplayable deliveries... he appears completely unconcerned with cutting his pace in order to get 96-98% of his deliveries in the right area.

The classic tale is of the advice once given to Warne by his own idol and then passed on by Warne to those who have seen him in that light: it's not a line about turning the ball square, developing variations like the flipper / wrong-un or mastering devilish disguise... it's simply learnign to get 6 stock balls out of 6 landing on an area the size of a pocket hankerchief and just sticking with that stock ball for over after over after over, no matter how much the batsman looks to hit you off that line, length and plan.

I'm quite sure junior seamers get the same advice: that there's no such thing as the "right areas" (plural), just the "right area"... that getting it in the "right area" 4 times out of 6 sucks if the other two deliveries ain's also in that area... and that nonsense like bouncers, yorkers and cutters and basically pyjama game party tricks not Test match solutions.

Do kids like Mahmood want to hear that? Or do you find more recognition from guys like Hoggard (best bowler in Britain, bar none).

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

Bell for example scored runs in the CC by waiting for the bad ball. The problem is in test cricket you dont get too many against the good sides

Donald offered plenty of bad balls.. and most modern fast bowlers are no-where near as good as him: Ntini, Lee and tait send down sackfulls. Bell's problem (if he's had one) has been nothing to do with the difference between domestic and international cricket... it's been getting bullied into "dominating" opponents - if Bell would just stick to waiting for the bad ball he'd be on the road to greatness... but he keeps succumbing to the intense media and coaching pressure to hit good balls as well.

That was what did for Ramps: feeling obligated to score when he knew the best strategy was to wait for an easier opportunity. Fortunately, Bell seems to be handing that pressure far, far better.

[darksideofthemoon]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

The problem is our bowlers dont learn to bowl lines and lengths so when Bresnan and Ali and.... got called up by England last year for ODI games they couldnt land the ball within 2 yards of where they should and got hammered for it, yet there county records were good.

Mahmood, Anderson, Plunkett, Broad, Onions..... all suffer from the same problem.

Extras per ODI game -
Harmison - 4.31
Mahmood - 3.32
Plunkett - 2.96
Gough - 2.89
Caddick - 2.36
Anderson - 2.28

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

OK. he might not send alot past leg stump but anderson, and pretty much all of the above send down plenty of 4 balls. So Mahmoods injured. In the bigger scheme of things, so what. Anderson, plunkett to name but two can do the same "job" ie young, inaccurate with reasonable county records and, when they get right, capable of wicket taking deliveries. You can get away with one of those in your side but with harmo spreading it around and the only control coming from either monty or, of all people, the much lamented Sidebottom (who also bowled the odd bad ball too many as well) you do need control coming from somewhere. So if hoggy and fred arent fit, you will be better getting a county trundler like side bottom rather than the prospect of having anderson, plunkett and god help us mahmood as well in the same test line up.

[flanflinger]

So what if Mahmood is injured, don't think he was in the running to play in this series or the next. The only people it should concern is Lancashire fans.

As for Harmison, I get the feeling he might do something a bit special in the next Test. If the pitch is anything like last years, and with the arrival of Vaughan at the helm (who generally gets the best out of Harmison) I get the feeling that he may take a few wickets.

Sidebottom brings a good balance to the side, while Hoggard is unfit, the big question is whether he will retain his place when the Hogster returns??? I don't think he will..

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Rachael

the problem is not or the intensity...

it's basically the lack of anything between the ears on the part of most of the kids.


Bell's problem (if he's had one) has been nothing to do with the difference between domestic and international cricket... it's been getting bullied into "dominating" opponents - if Bell would just stick to waiting for the bad ball he'd be on the road to greatness... but he keeps succumbing to the intense media and coaching pressure to hit good balls as well.

That was what did for Ramps: feeling obligated to score when he knew the best strategy was to wait for an easier opportunity. Fortunately, Bell seems to be handing that pressure far, far better.

I think one of the problems is intensity, even the great Shane Warne plays with far less intensity playing for Hampshire than he ever did playing for Australia. I dont believe it is possible to play with intensity when you play that many games.

I wouldnt argue with the statement about players having no brains though, especially most fast bowlers.

Bell has to learn to dominate attacks, if the bowling is tight you cannot let the bowler bowl maiden after maiden, you just put pressure on yourself and your team. Cricket is all about imposing yourself on your opponent i.e making him worry about you not the other way around.

Ramps' problem was the opposite to what you said - he was a naturally gifted attacking strokemaker who played the ball late, but in test cricket he was scared to get out. Therefore the bowler imposed himself on Ramps and he got dominated so got out cheaply. If Ramps' hadnt been so negative and thought a bit like say, KP he would have suceeded at test cricket. He had more than enough talent he just didnt know how to use it.

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

the much lamented Sidebottom (who also bowled the odd bad ball too many as well) prospect of having anderson, plunkett and god help us mahmood as well in the same test line up.

That is a point, even Sidebottom bowled a fair bit of loose stuff.

I dread the day we play Anderson, Plunkett and Mahmood - even if we are playing Zimbabwe "A".

Originally Posted by flanflinger

As for Harmison, I get the feeling he might do something a bit special in the next Test. If the pitch is anything like last years, and with the arrival of Vaughan at the helm (who generally gets the best out of Harmison) I get the feeling that he may take a few wickets.

Sidebottom brings a good balance to the side, while Hoggard is unfit, the big question is whether he will retain his place when the Hogster returns??? I don't think he will..

Spot on about Harmison, contary to what people may believe he didnt bowl badly in the second test and looked to be geting into a nice rythym. I'm sure Vaughan will get the best out of him.

I agree, Long term i dont see Sidebottom having an international future, although I suppose he could adapt and become our "Vaas", especially in the one day stuff.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

Bell has to learn to dominate attacks, if the bowling is tight you cannot let the bowler bowl maiden after maiden, you just put pressure on yourself and your team. Cricket is all about imposing yourself on your opponent i.e making him worry about you not the other way around.

There's a classic way to impose yourself on opposition that is unique to cricket: leaving the ball that's not where you want it.

If the batsman goes after the ball whenever possible the bowler gets a license to mix it up, spray it around and get the batsman (for example) fetching the ball from too wide of off stump, driving loosely and on the up playing late cuts to balls that should be blocked. Bat like that and even wayward disasters like Mahmood can get wickets.

Playing that way... the batsman might occasionally ride his luck to a score... but the winner is mostly going to be the bowler.

Now get a batsman who knows how to play: he leaves anything wide, leaves anything short and just laughs at the physically-draining exertions of the ever more frustrated bowler... who is conceding runs with the odd poor ball but not getting the batsman to play at enough deliveries to get the odds swinging his way.

Eventually the bowler must concede the battle: unless he bowls pitched up, on the stumps, consistently risking over-pitched deliveries that offer easy runs... he's just going to be wasting his time and his captain's time - victory to the disciplinarian.

Sadly.. Ramps used to catch all sorts of flak when he did this... not least from the team management