Hoggard To Replace Out Of Sorts Plunkett For Fourth Test.

[Gremlin]

Originally Posted by Ernest

England will have one of the tamest attacks in World cricket.

Of course, Flintoff and Jones may just recover from their injuries given time and the younger quicks will learn their trade given time..... I like Plunkett and Anderson and I'm sure they will make the grade once they've put in the hard miles. It is not their fault that they haven't been handled well by England over the last couple of years.

However, this may not happen this summer - I don't understand your negativity as long term there is strength.

[Notts Exile]

Originally Posted by Collyisamackem

Problem is though Notts, lower order batting has become pretty important in ODIs for many sides, but especially when you have a top order as fragile as ours has been for so long.

That's very true and I would go against the grain and select a man who can bowl accurately. We do need bowlers who can bat and maybe Plunkett will get in on that count but I do believe there should be a space for Sid.

[Collyisamackem]

Thinking of the likely side:

Vaughan*
Bell
Strauss
Pietersen
Collingwood
Bopara
Prior+
Plunkett
Mahmood/Broad/Sidebottom/Onions?
Anderson
Panesar

I'd actually have Sidebottom in there ahead of Mahmood and Broad. I don't know why I assumed he would be fighting Plunkett as the tests are a different kettle of fish to the ODIs.

[flanflinger]

It would be good if we could find a place for someone like James Benning of Surrey in the ODI team. Someone who can give the ball a blast and really take the game away from opponents.

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/surre...;ty pe=season

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Its not so long ago that our seamers were the foundations a hugely successful and ashes winning side was based. Two years on, we're picking, and this isnt meant as a slur on the lad, county trundlers who can hit off stump 4 or 5 balls out of six. Whats happened to tremlett, and other seamers who have been through out much vaunted academy over the last 3 or 4 years ? If mahmood, plunket and anderson the best of the bunch the future is far from bright.

Its also ironic that the spin option, so often a liability, is now the first name (or should be) on the team sheet in the form of young and energetic monty panesar, who I'm sure didnt go through the academy at all (although I'm prepered to be corrected on that)

[flanflinger]

Right RBLC

Here is the full list of Academy players between 2001 and 2005

http://www.ecb.co.uk/england/nationa...es,496,BP.html

and yes Monty did do the Academy in 02-03

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Gremlin

Of course, Flintoff and Jones may just recover from their injuries given time and the younger quicks will learn their trade given time[...]I don't understand your negativity as long term there is strength.

Flintoff will probably recover, Simon Jones I am not to sure.

England have players but there seems to be bias against some players.

Best example is Mahmood v Panesar - Mahmood did get carted against Australia, but did get wickets and has the raw pace, while Plunkett has struggled against the Windies.

Key is another - at least he has an experienced head, when Vaughan breaks down - the side is full of rookies.

Cook
key
Vaughan (C)
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Prior (w)
Mahmood
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar.

This side is a mix of experience and youth, if Mahmood has a bad day - Flintoff, Hoggard and Panesar are there to keep matters tidy.

There will be other people with other teams, but the one we have at the moment IMHO won't have the bite.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Right RBLC

Here is the full list of Academy players between 2001 and 2005

http://www.ecb.co.uk/england/nationa...es,496,BP.html

and yes Monty did do the Academy in 02-03

Thanks for that FF - very useful. Interesting to see some of those who were in for two years havent seen the ODI squad let alone the test squad, I mean, just how many times does someone need to look at rikki clarke ? And some, mainly those who have done one tour, I dont even remember on the county circuit, although, like the under 21s in football, thats to be expected. Names like wagg, who I'd forgotten about, should be looked at in the ODI setup as he's "clean" now and taking wickets for derbyshire and can bat. Ditto franks whose also had a go.

[darksideofthemoon]

In the Test side you would like two senior bowlers, junior bowler, all rounder and spinner (if going for a 5 man bowling unit). It's no good saying 'he's too young let him go back to the county and learn his trade'. Plunkett and Harmison were bowling very well in county cricket (one experienced and one not) and look what happened to them in these Tests. It's a big step up and many experienced older bowlers have fallen by the wayside. I think a bowler with potential should be nutured in the Test side. They will have good and bad days but should be stuck with. Hoggard had Gough and Caddick, Ntini had Pollock and Donald.

Say we stick with Harmison, Hoggard and Sidebottom. They are all going to be around for another five years. All probably finish Tests within a short space of each other. Then you have 3 county bowlers making the step up together. Plunkett bowling in county cricket for three or four years will eventually become an average county bowler. Will he be running in bowling at 85-90 mph for 500 overs every season?

We have seen what he is capable of in the CB series. He has got top batsmen out. If he was kept in the Test side he would have come right if people had patience but he is not going to develop with a game here and a game there. I think if Flintoff and Hoggard were in the team and Harmison was bowling well they might have carried Plunkett.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by darksideofthemoon

Plunkett bowling in county cricket for three or four years will eventually become an average county bowler. Will he be running in bowling at 85-90 mph for 500 overs every season?

I think if Flintoff and Hoggard were in the team and Harmison was bowling well they might have carried Plunkett.

A couple of good points there DSOTM. If Plunkett did play a lot of county cricket he'd probably become a poor mans Hoggard at best. And more than likely becoming a bowler who'd take a stack of wickets in the CC but would never quite be effective enough for tests.

As for your other point, that is the beauty of a 5 man attack, Plunkett could have been "carried", which would have helped his confidence. After all, at times Vaughan barely used Jones, giving him 4 or 5 overs here and there.