Winter tours 2007/08: Sri Lanka and New Zealand

[Rachael]

During yesterday's play at Trent Bridge the commentators discussed England's bowling depth and noted the dilemma facing those selectors charged with picking squads for the forthcoming winter tours of Sri Lanka (Nov-Dec, 3 Tests) and NZ (Feb-April, 3 Tests and some pyjama stuff).

Forget the batsmen for a minute: the Sri Lanka squad needs 3 touring spinners (and a spinner on standby) and the NZ squad might need 5 touring seamers (and a further seamer on standby)... and right now Panesar is the only certainty on the spin front (though Giles is prresumably an autmatic selection if fit) and Hoggard and Sidebottom are the only absolute certainties on the seam front (though Flintoff may tour even if only able to shoulder a pathetic workload, and dislodging the more experienced Harmison might perhaps require something very special from Tremlett and Anderson over the next few weeks).

Spin:

1. Panesar
2. ? < Giles if fit >
3. (Touring Sri Lanka) ?
Standby ?

In the frame: ???

Seam:

1. Hoggard
2. Sidebottom
3. ? Harmison
4. ? Flintoff < if 100% fit >
5. (Touring NZ): ? Anderson
Standby: ? Tremlett

Also in the frame: Simon Jones, Mahmood, Plunkett

[greg]

Well Giles won't be fit so we can forget him and neither will Simon Jones or we won't have learnt from past mistakes.

I have a gut feeling we might take Rashid to Sri Lanka as the third spinner behind Panesar and somebody else (probably Batty) as the cupboard is bare and he will probably learn more in Sri Lanka for a few weeks than in an academy.

As for the pace attack,it all depends who is fit.Hoggard and Flintoff are certainties if fit and then you need 4 more for Sri Lanka and 5 for New Zealand.My guess is that Sidebottom and Anderson will go alongside Tremlett and Harmison with Broad the extra man if needed.

My reason for the extra bowlers is the fact that they won't want to play 4 bowlers with Flintoff so as not to overburden him.I can see Freddie back in at 6 in Sri Lanka alongside 2 other seamers and 2 spinners which gives us a balanced attack.

[Rachael]

I also see Rashid as the obvious "young prospect" for the Sri Lanka tour: he'd be a handy net bowler and could learn a lot... and if half the team went down with a bug he's good enough to be called upon.

I'm also expecting Flintoff to play in Sri Lanka alongside 2 further seamers (Hoggard and Sidebottom) plus Panesar. Giles is an automatic if fit... but if (as you suspect) he is not then options for the other spinner might be:

1. Pietersen and Vaughan (batsmen, occasional bowlers)
2. Dalrymple / Yardy / similar (bits n pieces players)
3. Batty or similar (bowler who can bat well against spin and can play Murali ok)
4. Another specialist spinner...

One major consideration: they have to have a plan 'B' for the scenario in which Flintoff is unable to play. This might warrant a 3rd specialist seamer... meaning that a second specialist spinner was out of the question. Using Pietersen and Vaughan (and the odd over from Collingwood) might be the obvious solution... and Rashid could figure (promote the wicket-keeper to 6 and play Rashid as a no 7 batsman who bowls)... but this scenario might swing the selectors in favour of Dalrymple / Yardy.

[feverpitch]

I wrote a piece on England's spin options for the winter: Third Umpire: Who is England's second best spinner?

I do not think Dalrymple is a candidate; he simply is not good enough with the bat and (especially) with the ball. This season he is averaging 10 and 70 for Middlesex, which sums it up.

[Andy Mellon]

Should be an interesting tour of New Zealand for England. I can see England being pressed pretty hard by the Kiwis (if their full first choice bowling line up is fit) seeing how England have struggled against the swinging ball facing a relatively weak Indian seam attack. New Zealand in March is not exactly the height of summer (last year, I was watching the West Indies through the fog at the Basin Reserve in March) and the ball will more than likely swing prodigiously. Bond is a better bowler than any of the English bowlers in these conditions, and Franklin can be pretty tough to play with a swinging ball.

Should be an interesting series.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Rachael

... but this scenario might swing the selectors in favour of Dalrymple / Yardy.

Originally Posted by feverpitch

I do not think Dalrymple is a candidate; he simply is not good enough with the bat and (especially) with the ball. This season he is averaging 10 and 70 for Middlesex, which sums it up.

If the selectors even consider picking Dalrymple then they should have their sanity checked.

As feverpitch has said he clearly isnt good enough with bat or ball and to be brutally honest he is probably a worse bowler than KP.

I would be wary of picking Rashid as I feel he isnt ready yet, especially against bats who can play the spinning ball. He could be a big star in the future and i would hate to see his potential ruined by an unjustified early selection.

[darksideofthemoon]

Sri Lanka tour
1 Cook
2 Vaughan
3 Bell
4 Pietersen
5 Collingwood
6 Prior
7 Flintoff
8 Udal
9 Harmison
10 Hoggard
11 Panesar

12 Strauss 13 Ambrose 14 Rashid 15 Tremlett 16 Sidebottom

[engssmoothcriminal]

To be honest the spin bowling cupboard is so bare that there really is little point taking three spinners to Sri Lanka and certainly no point in playing two spinners in the tests purely for the sake of it. Our last two three tours of the subcontinent has resulted in the selection of a couple of second rate off spinners (Batty and Udal) who could do an effective job with the bat down at 8 supporting the one international class sla and unsurprisingly they got caned by batsmen who are great players of spin. We'd be far better advised to go with the all pace attack (looking for reverse swing) and give Monty a heavy workload (which is something he seems to thrive upon) with a few overs of KP and Vaughan thrown in for variety.

Gary Keedy gets brought along as his like for like replacement (like Monty he can't bat, can't field but is a pretty decent left arm spinner) in the event of injury or illness. The pasting that Adil Rashid recieved at the hands of Tendulkar in the Lions game should make it clear that he is not remotely ready for the big time and he will benifit far more from an A tour.

[darksideofthemoon]

Thinking about it you are probably right esc. You have changed my mind on taking 3 spinners to Sri Lanka.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Feverpitch

if I had to pick a squad now, I would take [...] Swann and Rashid for the Tests

Same verdict in today's Torygraph: Swann looks England's best second spinner - Telegraph