England's place in world cricket

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I have not a clue, or have ever seen any evidence to back up the clain that Pietersen in an upsetting factor in the England dressing room, .

i have no doubt that is true - which is why i had to mention it in the first place.

[greg]

Originally Posted by butchering lee

The dropped catches were irrelevant

How can you say that,if we hadn't have dropped the catches they would have ended up with less than we scored anyway which means we would have won the game.

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by butchering lee

the dropped catches were irrelavant

Originally Posted by greg

How can you say that.

Simple. At the half way point England were in the driver's seat! 150 was easily gettable.

[Rachael]

Any side can stumble from a position of strength... and every time they do, some second rate journalists spout psycho-babble and make out that something is profoundly wrong.

Sure, the match was winnable... but no team wins from every winnable position!

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Any side can stumble from a position of strength... and every time they do, some second rate journalists spout psycho-babble and make out that something is profoundly wrong.

you are quite right ... and i am blaming second-rate journalists (not KP), though i think they reflect both the supporters and the team.

My issue with Greg is resolved now i think - it was a position of strength and therefore you cannot blame the catching, which was unfortunate (though of course SA missed a few). ANYWAY, i really do think that something has gone wrong (and i've said what i think it is) with a side that, considering the talent, should be far more consistent than it is.

[John]

Pietersen is a rare talent. Whether he brings disunity to the side I do not know although it will come out in the biographies.
Even if his difficult to work with there are a few Test sides who snap up such a natural talent.
By the way wasn't Botham and Lara difficult characters?

England are still a top side. In Test cricket they are still up there in one day cricket they are not that far off the pace.

Their recent problems stem from.
1. Injuries absolutely true.
2.Strauss who got off to great start may have been found out.
3.Hoggard's failure to translate his Test form into one day form.
4. Wicketkeeper the search continues.
5.Maybe a element of things going to English cricket's head in general after 2005 Ashes.

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by John

England are still a top side. In Test cricket they are still up there in one day cricket they are not that far off the pace.

I am not quibbling about if they are good - they are simply not as good as they should be imo. The list you gave is not a short one and i think you could add a few things. One being: having to have a 'hero' in the side - this has nothing whatsoever to do with KPs actions (though he shows more, let's call it...determination than most in the side when up against it). However, he is this years sensation but he's not from Lancashire .. or Yorkshire and his motivation is not one the team can empathise with, yet the nation (and Rachael will chastise me - maybe correctly - for judging the nation by its media...well, and the good folk i've encountered in britain) seem to pin their hopes on him when the going gets rough.

As for KP himself - I dislike him immensly (as much as is possible to dislike someone i've never met. i mentally BOO when he enters the field and CHEER mentally when he's out - apart from that i generally hope england win, as my adopted country - and with zimbabwe in the tramlines). i dislike him mainly for his mouth which is obviously still smarting from this imaginary slap he received from his country (of origin). i don't think he's a rare talent (and since finding good free streaming sites i have watched a lot of himj lately - i think he's as good as i think he is: he's audacious and inventive against weak bowling and at the same time determined, imposing and ocassionally spectacular against good bowling - there are better players around, even if they're not, at the moment, in the English team. Still, i do not think he is a deliberate problem in the dressing-room. To the contrary, i think he expresses his comrardery in many obvious ways. I do however, still think there's a problem when i both read and get the general sense that "it'll be ok, KP is in next" and "we've lost, KP is out".

[butchering lee]

in a nod to rachael and a few other very informed posters here on WAT. clearly not everyone regards KP in the same sychophantic way a large proportion of media and part-time cricket lovers do but i have been around here and there long enough to know it is not just the musings of a few kronko journos and a bunch of half-witted motley members of some wannabe barmy army.

[greg]

England are the 2nd ranked test side in the world and deserve to be,we are obviously ranked lower in one day cricket but when you consider our totally inept performances in the world cup we are improving slowly as we are competing in far more games now than we were back then,we may not be winning many yet but who knows in another years time the team may carry on improving and start winning.

Overall i am happy enough but i know we can improve in both forms of the game,though admittedly we may take a step back with the Flintoff saga as he is clearly nowhere near fit and we don't have a replacement for him.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by butchering lee

yet the nation [...] seem to pin their hopes on him when the going gets rough [...] I [...] think there's a problem when i both read and get the general sense that "it'll be ok, KP is in next" and "we've lost, KP is out".

First things first: many so-called "fans" and much of the fan-obsessed media is obsessed with individual performance in team games. Soccer is replete with examples: selfless team players like Gary Neville rarely get huge acclaim despite routinely putting in far superior performances than the likes of Rooney and the two Coles. His brother and Emile Heskey might not be as consistently good.. but they have always worked hard to make others look good.... and have often eclipsed those around them and then taken the flak when those around them STILL fail to deliver.

This is nothing new, and is not unique to soccer. Stewart, Botham, Gough and Flintoff have all been over-hyped in the media in games in which they have been indifferent... whereas a better quality performance from (say) Crawley or Caddick has been the cue for utter castigation!

So some fan and media hopes ARE pinned on individuals... but I'm not convinced that this nonsense has that much impact with many professional teams in any sport: the fact that England managed without much help from Pietersen in winning the recent ODI series in Australia and then against India this summer... and the success the team have had without Flintoff in many games...suggests that the dressingroom is in sounder shape than you suggest.

ps. In 2003 it was quite clear that England's top order feared a middle order collapse: many in the media looked to Flintoff to pull England out of holes... but the high probability of Flintoff failing put HUGE pressure on the likes of Butcher, Hussain and Thorpe! The barmy army and team were well and truly on different wavelengths!