England's place in world cricket

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by butchering lee

i cannot begin to imagine how demorailising that must be for:

Vaughan - who led superbly.

I might have been better saying that England would not have won the Ashes had Flintoff not been part of the team - yes Vaughan was captain, but with the England team on a high after beating all opposition out of sight for a year or so, that team could have captained itself IMO.
But I questioned his leadership on this board after he allowed Flintoff to get drunk as a skunk and show himself and the team up in public Vaughan was on the bus and should have stopped him, and yes Flintoff should not have got in that condition.

Originally Posted by butchering lee

S Jones - who was the surprise package - that really unsettled Australia

No he was no surprise package - he was England's big hope when they toured Australia in I think 2003, he was fast - and could bat, and yes he did play a major role in England Ashes win in 2005.
KP - Giles - Hoggy all played their part, Harmy after his 5 wicket haul at Lords did not IMO shine.

Originally Posted by butchering lee

KP - who, ironically for me, was involved in two of 3/4 crucial moments[...] would in all probability feel slightly put out at your summary of the ashes.

My post was not a summary of the 2005 Ashes, it was in response to this:-

Originally Posted by Rachael

Stewart, Botham, Gough and Flintoff have all been over-hyped in the media in games in which they have been indifferent[... ]whereas a better quality performance from (say) Crawley or Caddick has been the cue for utter castigation!

I was mearley saying that Flintoff and Botham and others deserved the hype, and pointing out what he had achieved - I was not deriding any other player - and I think it fair comment to state that England would not have won the Ashes without Flintoff.

Originally Posted by butchering lee

which goes back to what I was saying. this is nothing to do with England's potential - they simply should be doing better

With respect I would would like you to explain why England have any potential to be a first class one day side after the results of the last few years.
England have the worst one day record of all the major test playing nations, and after the experimentation in the 20/20 WC, I can only see England getting worse eg: England played all their squad, it would appear just to give everyone a go.

I could accept your point had the 5-0 drubbing by India - had been a one off, but it's more the norm.

[Speedboy Salesman]

ODI cricket has been for a while now the bane of English cricket. There is much fanfare about our Test matches but never about our ODI matches (except of course, when we win). Let's face it, most of us (English and non-English supporters) never expected England to do well in this Twenty20 competition. We don't have the likes of Hayden, Gilchrist or Symonds in our line up to smash oppositions into submission. We have Pietersen who regularly gets himself out to stupid shots, and Flintoff, who is increasingly becoming an out and out bowler. (We also need a new wicketkeeper, but that can wait for another time ) I too, like many people have said, are sick of this Pietersen worship. He is a good player, but the fact that all hopes fade after Pietersen is out is stupid! I don't like the English presses idol worship of "and on the 6th day, God created Kevin". For me, batsman like Bopara and Shah can hold the key to an England victory. Panesar bowls too fast in ODI matches. Is it because he's not comfortable playing for England in limited overs cricket?

[Ernest]

I think the way the England team was selected DURING this 20/20 WC says it all, and the strange tactics used by Collingwood.

The idea was good, but he should have ended the rotation tactic - after the second failure.

SS - I think the hero worship of Pietersen is like what happened to Flintoff in 2004/05, but he will find that most of these worshipers will be fairweather supporters, and will turn against him in the lean times.

I have just been listening to an interview with Moores on the BBC website over Flintoff, and while he sounder optimistic - he did say tests to se if Flintoff will be able to bowl in Test cricket again (or words to that effect).

Looks bleak at the moment.