He just gets better.

[Seamer]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Andy Roddick is often described as dominating , strong, exciting, brutal... but in truth he's second rate: his serve is crude, his forhand is just a flat bash, his backhand is just an inferior (two handed) flat bash and his volleying lacks the instinctive touch and feel that is the basis of great net-play. He is awful at changing the pace, varying the spin, finding the angles. He is completely lacking in guile, and is basically that most loathesome of characters... the bully.

Right, this is a pure wind-up . First you put Hick in the same category as Hayden, Now you are comparing Hayden to Roddick! If Roddick had even come close to achieving in tennis what Hayden has in cricket, it would be a fair cop, but he has'nt.

How many times did Sampras, Agassi, Becker ect win on clay? Does that lack of success on those conditions mean they were not good at tennis? No, everyone has their weaknesses. Even Bradman struggled against the quality pace of Larwood did he not?

Originally Posted by Rachael

ps. Great players of first rate fast bowling leave what they can, lingering on the back foot to pitched up deliveries (threatening to play late to anything overpitched) and threatening to swivel pull shorter balls that err in line: is that really a description of Hayden's game?

Hayden for many years was rather circumspect when playing balls short of a length outside off. By necessity, he was eventually forced to address this issue, but the fact he had the dicipline to play in this manner belies your above statement. Hayden is not all bash and crash. He also has a subtle touch when required and is more than willing to go into defensive mode if needed. Think back to his ton at the oval in 2005 and their is an example of a grafting, fighting Hayden employing subtlety rather than brutality.

I know the type of batman you like Rachel - guys like Kattich for example. You showed great faith in his abilities during his time playing tests, but history shows that it was Hayden, not Kattich, that had the goods.

[engssmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by Rachael

There's posting a total and then there's demonstrating class: even the likes of Butcher, Hussain and Collingwood posted totals; Sehwag and Ganguly have posted totals; none could be said to have answered critics in ANY innings they EVER played. All were limited players.

Hick was clearly more able than all of the above. He had the footwork, balance, hands and eye to rise above their level.. especially against spin (against which he was surely one of the greats of his generation)... but far more accomplished judges than myself, who seem agreed that Vaughan, Atherton and Ramprakash have been a class above all but Thorpe over recent years, seem hesitatant when it comes to Hick - and time and again that hesitation is linked to concern about his handling of aggressive fast bowling.

ps. My own view was always that Hick was too reliant on his eye for the ball: he was fine when playing even good bowlers on good batting pitches... but rather like Thorpe, he was nothing special when playing the same bowling on sporting tracks where "leave if at all possible" was the order of the day - something that may also be true of Pietersen.

If taking apart an attack including Pollock, Donald, McMillan, Schultz and Mathews on a pitch with a darn sight more pace and bounce than those which Ramps ground out his two test hundreds isn't a demonstration of class then I shudder to think what is. That knock at Centurion was a truely outstanding innings against a South African attack who tested out his supposed weakness against the short ball and came off a distant second best as Hick comfortably dealt with it before proceeding to unveil the dominant all round game that made him a county great. Just a shame that 6 months later he was back to driving medium pace nonesense from Ganguly straight to mid off and on the verge of being dropped yet again.

You can count on one hand the number of times Ramprakash batted like he did for his county on the international arena and looking technically correct whilst being to engaged in battling your own mental demons to get the ball off the square does not in my book constitute demonstrating class. As Boycs so often points out it's not how but how many and Ramps fell way short of proven international cricketers Ganguly, Sehwag e.t.c in that regard. The fact his cover drive may have been a tad more aesthetically pleasing means absolutely sod all in the grand scheme of things.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by engssmoothcriminal

That knock at Centurion was a truely outstanding innings against a South African attack who tested out his supposed weakness against the short ball and came off a distant second best as Hick comfortably dealt with it before proceeding to unveil the dominant all round game that made him a county great.

point taken - making that an innings that should be noted each time some suggests that Hick couldn't manage the "step up" to Test level!