Seam v Spin? - In Sri Lanka>

[Ernest]

Ashley Giles.

                     Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered            54  1421  59   20.89   0   4 143  5/57   40.60  5  33  0
filtered               6    89  18   11.12   0   0  25  5/116  33.92  1   2  0

Monty Panesar.

                    Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

overall              20   124  26    7.29   0   0  73  6/129  30.80  6   3  0

For all the stck that Ashley Giles has taken, looking at his record v Panesar, they are almost identical in terms of bowling.

Giles about 3 wickets a match, with Panesar slightly more.

But when we look at the batting of Giles, it shows why the late England middle order was more stable than today, with Giles averaging nearly 21 againt the just over 7 Panesar has managed.

Should not really matter about the batting, but when a side has a fragile top order, then if a bowler can stick arround - then it helps.

The filtered stats for Giles is his record in Sri Lanka.
Both players have good econ rates, and Panesar with a strike rate in the 60's, surley that means that with Englands depleted seam attack - both Swann and Panesar should bowl with Hoggard and Broad as England's main seamers in the coming first test in Sri Lanka.

I would not normally advocate playing two spinners in any circumstances, but due to Flintoff - Harmison and Anderson being injured - then it must make sence to vary the attack rather than play a one paced seam attack.

Anyone agree?.

As an afterthought - after all the stick Giles has took over the years, his stats are very respectable - considering that captains including Hussain bowled him in a defensive mode on subcontinental pitches, and even here in England.

The reason for the mention of Giles - is that Swann seams to be able to hold a bat - as well as bowl.

Swann's England ODI stat's.

                     Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

overall                5    83  34   27.66   0   0   7  4/34   25.71  0   4  0

His batting average of 27-66 could well come in handy, if a late partnership is required.

[acker]

We are already at the stage where a wicketkeeper is firstly a batsman and secondly a keeper.
You not going that far, but are raising the stakes on the secondary responsilbilty of the spinner which is to bat.
Might I ask why the paceman are not being scrutinized in the same fashion ?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by acker

We are already at the stage where a wicketkeeper is firstly a batsman and secondly a keeper.

I agree it's gone down that road, but in the past some on the best keepers could bat almost as good as they could keep.
A.P.E Knott and Rod Marsh springs to mind, and F Engineer India and Lancashre was also a good keeper who was also a good batsman.
Stewart I suppose started the modern trend, he was a world class batsman, and a decent keeper.

Originally Posted by acker

but are raising the stakes on the secondary responsilbilty of the spinner which is to bat.
Might[...] I ask why the paceman are not being scrutinized in the same fashion ?

Because I am thinking firstly that with the pace attack England have through injuries, two spinners would be the better option at the moment - depite the fact that as a rule I don't agree with playing two spinners in tandem.

The fact that Swann can bat is a bonus, there is no doubting that England's rise in fortunes in 2004/05 was helped by some dogged batting from Giles - and this present England batting line up is nowhere near as strong as it was in 2004/05.

Would you agree acker that had England had Hoggard, Sidebottom, Broad as the England pace attack in 2005, that England would not have reclaimed the ashes?.

[Notts Exile]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Would you agree acker that had England had Hoggard, Sidebottom, Broad as the England pace attack in 2005, that England would not have reclaimed the ashes?.

Ern,

I don't believe anyone else is claiming we would have done either!

Where we are now is very different. We don't have Flintoff or Jones. Harmison is either not fit or in no sort of form whatsoever. All that's left is the Hogster. The pace options aren't exactly wonderful, Mahmood isn't worth a place in the squad. The others aren't quite as quick but have the benefits of being able to bowl somewhere near the target and being fit.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Would you agree acker that had England had Hoggard, Sidebottom, Broad as the England pace attack in 2005, that England would not have reclaimed the ashes?.

So we're looking at the following side:

Tresco
Strauss
Vaughan
Bell
Pietersen
Thorpe
Jones
Broad (on current form)
Giles
Sidebottom (on current form)
Hoggard (on current form)

Well.. one thing is for sure: the batting is stronger. Stronger in the top six, much stronger at 8, 9 & 10. This side would have been less likely to LOSE a Test than the side that actually played: less likely to lose the Lords Test England DID lose; less likely to have been close to defeat in the Test England very nearly blew (Edgbaston); less likely to have got the jitters at Trent Bridge.

Bowling wise... Sidebottom is a fair replacement for Jones and Hoggard NOW is better than Flintoff was THEN... and Broad would be worth backing to match the level Harmison and Hoggard managed in that series (Harmison was decent at Lords, where Broad would have got bounce, and Hoggard was excellent when the ball was swinging at Trent Bridge, but neither had much impact elsewhere).

One thing though: the groundsmen would almost certainly NOT have prepared the dry, abrasive, grassless pitches at Edgbaston and Old Trafford if the England attack had been Hoggard / Sidebottom / Broad - and on that basis I do think the attacks would have been on a par.

You always have over-rated that 2005 attack: Jones apart... it was pretty ordinary.

[engssmoothcriminal]

Getting back on topic Ern Swann is not remotely in the same class of bowler as Gilo. He may from an aesthetical point of view look nicer and turn the ball further but the simple facts are that despite playing a fair portion of his career down at Northants and down in div 2 he averages 33 in first class cricket (an average which is not going down) and goes at over 3 an over so any notion of him keeping an end tight whilst Monty does the damage from the other seems somewhat misguided to me. A bit of success in a few ODI's on substandard tracks shouldn't deflect from the fact that he's another Batty and Udal and bowlers of that calibre simply get caned on the subcontinent. And in only a 4 man attack you cannot accommodate a player purely for his tailend batting.

[Notts Exile]

Originally Posted by engssmoothcriminal

Getting back on topic Ern Swann is not remotely in the same class of bowler as Gilo. .................... A bit of success in a few ODI's on substandard tracks shouldn't deflect from the fact that he's another Batty and Udal and bowlers of that calibre simply get caned on the subcontinent.

Ah, a Warwickshire supporter disappointed that Swanny turned down the Bears to go to Trent Bridge.

Spinners improve with age and Swann is getting better every season. Playing at Trent Bridge sure doesn't help him but he's matured as a person and as a result is bowling better. Suggesting he's not remotely in the same class as Giles massively exaggerates the Wheelie Bin's talent. Giles was a very good bowler at containing, nothing more.

Swann did more in a few ODI games than Batty and Udal ever did. He's a far more attacking bowler than any of those previously mentioned. Maybe he is a better suited to ODI cricket but he's earned his chance. I don't expect him to play too often but I don't reckon he'll let us down.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by engssmoothcriminal

Swann is not remotely in the same class of bowler as Gilo [...] despite playing a fair portion of his career down at Northants and down in div 2 [...] goes at over 3 an over so any notion of him keeping an end tight whilst Monty does the damage from the other seems somewhat misguided to me [...[ he's another Batty and Udal and bowlers of that calibre simply get caned on the subcontinent

I agree on one point: Swann isn't going to block an end up and build pressure for Monty. If anything, it will be the other way around: Monty firing in deliveries to build pressure... and being treated with respect... building pressure that encourages batsmen to go after better flighted, more aggressive (if less consistently accurate) bowling from Swann.

As for lesser spinners getting caned on the sub-continent... Michael Clarke might disagree (recall those 6 wickets for 9 runs in India)... as might (more significantly) Darren Lehmann: check out this game... his return of 19-2-50-3 in the first innings was impressive: he outdid Shane Warne on average, strike rate AND economy. He then came back in the second innings and did even better: his figures of 17-2-42-3 once again eclipsed Warne's.

I'm sure it helped having Warne the other end... but I'd not rule out Swann having the same sort of impact in tandem with Panesar.

ps. I wonder how Jayasuria, Sehwag and Tendulkar would view your comment about bowlers of their callibre?

Originally Posted by Notts Exile

Spinners improve with age and Swann is getting better every season [...] Suggesting he's not remotely in the same class as Giles massively exaggerates the Wheelie Bin's talent [...] He's a far more attacking bowler than any of those previously mentioned.

Whilst I basically agree with you on Swann... I think you are being harsh on Giles... and if you think back to Giles' last tour of Sri Lanka.... you'd have to say that ANY country would have welcomed that contribution: he wasn't as devastating as Murali... but in the first two Tests in particular (on the two pitches that gave him something to work with) he bowled very well indeed.

[greg]

Well i don't know if Swann is good enough for test cricket but he deserves his place on this tour as the 2nd spinner as we haven't got much behind Monty.Whether he remains as the number 2 for a while probably depends on how well Rashid develops at Yorkshire but for now i am happy enough having Swann in the squad,at least he looks better than Batty who never did anything in an England shirt.

Those being critical of Swann are being unfair as we don't know what he can do until he is picked and looking at the squad we have got out there i doubt he will get a chance as England seem happy to go in with 3 pacemen and Monty.

[engssmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by Notts Exile

Ah, a Warwickshire supporter disappointed that Swanny turned down the Bears to go to Trent Bridge.

Indeed who in there right mind would turn down the chance to join the fun and games down at Edgebaston (we put the I in Incompetence). Sadly we will never know how good Swann might have been had he spent a few years under the tutelage of Greatbatch .

Spinners improve with age and Swann is getting better every season. Playing at Trent Bridge sure doesn't help him but he's matured as a person and as a result is bowling better. Suggesting he's not remotely in the same class as Giles massively exaggerates the Wheelie Bin's talent. Giles was a very good bowler at containing, nothing more.

I'll have to take your word for this as I suspect you've seen far more of Swann over the last few seasons than I have but sorry you'll not convince me he currently has the same weapons in his armoury as Gilo had at his disposal when he made his test debut before he was forced to adapt his game to suit the interests of the team and demands of a conservative captain and coach. In terms of the areas that trouble the top batsmen (who won't fall to pieces when Swann manages to turn a couple) use of flight, guile, subtle changes of pace, the ability to maintain pressure (control) and adapt his bowling to different styles of batsmen and surfaces Gilo was streets ahead and his domestic record backed that up.

I have no objections to Swann playing in ODI's (a format tailor mad for him) or for lack of better options being Monty's understudy but that's as far as it goes. I personally can't see him averaging any more than 25 with the bat or better than 45 with the ball (at around 3.5 an over) which in a 4 man attack isn't an acceptable return. Minus a fit firing Flintoff 2 spinners simply isn't an option.

(And the bowling at Trent Bridge excuse is wearing a bit thin. Edgebaston was hardly the destination of choice for finger spinners in the last decade and Gilo still managed to carve out an excellent FC record)