Vaughan's bold statement

[Goatman]

Whilst on the subject of captains, I'd like to remark what a great job Crusher Vaughan seems to be doing. Sure, he inherited an unusually healthy situation for an incoming ENG captain from Hussain but the fact that the "coming through" of various players has continued strongly indicates that eh is, at least, continuing good work and at in at least 1 or 2 cases has improved upon it. Flintoff and Harmison have made thier strides under his tuteledge, after a strong foundation laid under his predecessor. Strauss has largely done it for himself, but how often do ENG debutants make that sort of impact? The incumbent management deserve some credit for giving him the belief to allow himself to shine. Vaughans usage of the big hearted Hoggard, still (perhaps unusually!) my favourite ENG player, as mouthpeice and leader of a bowling unit (his articulate articles in the media, relaxed and modest positiveness in interview and the fact that he still takes the first over in each innings point to his role within the team, on and off the field) which clearly feels more and more comfortable with each other will make it easy for young/injury cover players to enter the squad and thrive. Hoggard is a good, solid intellegent guy who is, by no stretch of the imagination, a "star" in his own mind. Such an outlook being allowed to dominate in the dressing room will exclude noone.

Vuaghans own positiveness, confidence and ambition is brushing off on a team that looks increasingly liek they believe they can, and will, win without the slightly desparate, defensive, rabbit-in-the-headlights squeaks of "we believe we can win" of some other ENG captains or the arrogant hubris of some other modern captains. Not to mention any names. Apart from Graeme Smith. The ****.

The rennasisance of Mr. Piles must surely be attributed to his usage as an attacking option by Vaughan and the unwavering confidence his captain has shwon in him, though thick and thin. He has been made to feel genuinely welcome within the squad, and for a player for whom confidence is so important this has made a difference. The unusual success rate of players entering the team - Strauss, GO Jones and Key have all earned plaudits - indicate that this may not be an isolated case.

If he can return to his own peak form, which I fully believe he will by the way, then we may finally have an ENG setup that will have not only the ambition, but also the confidence, to finally step up to the level of SA and IND and on towards AUS. Constrast the unified front and self belief presented by ENG to the squabbling factionality and negativity of WI or PAK, who possess squads with little less talent than ENG's own.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I realise how strong your views are Rachael, but if you're going to say it like it is... for God's sake, say it like it is with the real players [...] Boycott, Gooch, Willey, and Willis were all strong minded individuals and three of the four of them were pretty near the best we had. Gower was the best, Woolmer was considered to be the best player of fast bowling in county cricket, I don't think this is a side that would have wilted particularly in the face of Botham's dressing room influence.

Absolutely.. my comment was more about the reported dressing room influence over his career and the reported "unmanageability" of the side in the mid-late 80s that the team listed above: if Botham tried it on with that lot he'd have got short shrift indeed!

My point was more that Botham's character and record was hardly that of an England Captain: something that undoubtedly explains why the guy has never, every, been let near selection panels (let alone the day-to-day coaching side of things) ever since.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Goatman

Whilst on the subject of captains, I'd like to remark what a great job Crusher Vaughan seems to be doing. Flintoff and Harmison have made thier strides under his tuteledge, after a strong foundation laid under his predecessor. Strauss has largely done it for himself, but how often do ENG debutants make that sort of impact? The incumbent management deserve some credit for giving him the belief to allow himself to shine. Vaughans usage of the big hearted Hoggard, still (perhaps unusually!) my favourite ENG player, as mouthpeice and leader of a bowling unit (his articulate articles in the media, relaxed and modest positiveness in interview and the fact that he still takes the first over in each innings point to his role within the team, on and off the field) which clearly feels more and more comfortable with each other will make it easy for young/injury cover players to enter the squad and thrive. Hoggard is a good, solid intellegent guy who is, by no stretch of the imagination, a "star" in his own mind. Such an outlook being allowed to dominate in the dressing room will exclude noone.

Hmm, as ever, hmmm!

While I agree with a great deal of this, I do feel it necessary to mention a couple of points regarding the feeling of comfort that Hoggard and the England side have with each other, with reference to the inclusion last summer of the unfortunate Ed Smith.

Somebody remarked from one or other media format, that nobody in the England dressing room would have heard anybody talking with an accent like Ed Smith's.
Hoggard in an interview last summer went on to say something along the lines of: "he (Smith) went to Cambridge University, I went to a comprehensive" and then sarcastically added: "we had loads to talk about."

I can just imagine how "comfortable" Ed Smith felt in the England dressing room... I wonder why he didn't get another go?

[Rachael]

Very much with you on Vaughan, Goatman: I really, really appreciate his leadership style.. and whilst we clearly operate with only the most superficial indicaters of his personal contribution... his team does increasingly seem moulded in his own image - at least with respect to the "prima donna" complex (Hoggard and Giles DO seem to be the model team players.. but so also does Flintoff: the giant egos that characterised the national team at times in the past would appear to have given way to something far, far more savoury.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Rachael

My point was more that Botham's character and record was hardly that of an England Captain: something that undoubtedly explains why the guy has never, every, been let near selection panels (let alone the day-to-day coaching side of things) ever since.

Oh fine! Just so long as we're straight. Sorry, I misunderstood.

[Rachael]

Very good point on Ed Smith, Oliver... though that was VERY early in the new reign. One wonders, in addition, if something of the same "face fits" thing swung the Read / Jones decision so promptly: there certainly apppears to be a chemistry between Vaughan and Jones that was not evident with Vaughan and Read.

On the other hand... we're operating so much in the dark that I'd hate to draw any very firm conclusions.

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I can just imagine how "comfortable" Ed Smith felt in the England dressing room... I wonder why he didn't get another go?

He diddn't get another go because, after his first innings, he batted like an enormous cabbage and ever since has struggled to recreate the form that got him into the team to begin with. If sarcasm about priveledge, or lack of it, in a players background is the worst thing new players have to deal with, then I would suggest that that is about as friendly and welcoming a group you are likely to get, without deliberately selecting smiling chaps with beards, coloured pullovers and guitars, who would probably immediate drive half of the new intake away screaming when they asked them "If they had talked with ***** recently".

[eng fan]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Hmm, as ever, hmmm!

While I agree with a great deal of this, I do feel it necessary to mention a couple of points regarding the feeling of comfort that Hoggard and the England side have with each other, with reference to the inclusion last summer of the unfortunate Ed Smith.

Somebody remarked from one or other media format, that nobody in the England dressing room would have heard anybody talking with an accent like Ed Smith's.
Hoggard in an interview last summer went on to say something along the lines of: "he (Smith) went to Oxford University, I went to a comprehensive" and then sarcastically added: "we had loads to talk about."

I can just imagine how "comfortable" Ed Smith felt in the England dressing room... I wonder why he didn't get another go?

Yeah, but Andrew Strauss is in the side and doing well, and he's an ex-public schoolboy, whose nickname is apparently Lord Brocket

[eng fan]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Very good point on Ed Smith, Oliver... though that was VERY early in the new reign. One wonders, in addition, if something of the same "face fits" thing swung the Read / Jones decision so promptly: there certainly apppears to be a chemistry between Vaughan and Jones that was not evident with Vaughan and Read.

On the other hand... we're operating so much in the dark that I'd hate to draw any very firm conclusions.

Did u hear what Jack Russell said recently? that he found G Joens easier to work with and more enthusiastic than Chris Read?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Goatman

He diddn't get another go because, after his first innings, he batted like an enormous cabbage and ever since has struggled to recreate the form that got him into the team to begin with. If sarcasm about priveledge, or lack of it, in a players background is the worst thing new players have to deal with...

Come on Goatman, a little more perspicacity perhaps. Reading between the lines, one supposes that Ed Smith got it in the neck rather severely, I hope for his sake that he isn't religious as well... then he'd've had a hell of a time.
He played like a large green vegetable, because he wasn't comfortable in the dressing room set up.

However, I think, to tar the Read/Jones business with the same "does the face fit?" brush is a little wide of the mark.
Read was given the chance to score some runs, and he didn't particularly manage it... not that anybody did much against Sri Lanka and Bangladesh... that he didn't either in the Caribbean is a little more damning.

Vaughan gets on well with Jones because he is a talented cussed antipodean character. It is difficult not to get on with those types. Chris Read was constantly under pressure and probably tugged his forelock over much toward his skipper, hoping that that might keep him on side.

Sadly, it didn't... perhaps if Vaughan had bowled a bit more and Read had tidied up the sub-continentals with a few stumpings of the skipper's bowling, he might have kept his place.

Ah well, I expect his is doomed to only play International cricket when young Geraint is injured.

For shame.