Vaughan's bold statement

[Oliver]

Having picked up and swiftly rifled through the ghastly Metro on the tube this morning, I see that Michael Vaughan has well and truly put the mockers on Andrew Flintoff:
"Freddie is best player on planet"


High praise indeed from the England skipper.
I do hope Mr. Flintoff can continue in this present vein of form, but I question whether his shoulders are broad enough for such glowing tributes.

Smacks a little of Lara's suggestion that England have no plan B which preceded England using Plan B to annihilate the West Indies.

Suffice to say I am now prepared for Flintoff's king pair, wicketless bowling and several shelled catches.

[Kirsty Harris]

Oliver

Actually, this is a slight misquote. It was, in fact, Adam Hollioake who said that. Vaughan said something of the lines of 'not disagreeing' with other peoples claims that Flintoff is the best player in the world.

Of course, it makes a better headline if Vaughan says it than (to quote Mark Nicholas in the Telegraph) 'the best captin we never had'!!

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Evening all. Minor (and unannounced) changes at work resulted with me without a pc with a modem in it. Poor form indeed.

Havent watchted any cricket, just read a bit tonight. Mark Nicholas statement has confirmed what I've thought for a while: Mark Nicholas needs his head bashing in.

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

Havent watchted any cricket, just read a bit tonight. Mark Nicholas statement has confirmed what I've thought for a while: Mark Nicholas needs his head bashing in.

Well, it is true that Adam Hollioake was a good captin of the good ship Surrey, and I won't say anything against the bloke, who is throughly decent, likeable and hardworking. Still, I never really saw him as a England Captin and I was very happy England didn't, cause he belongs to us

Must be his retirement bringing out the charitable side in people!!

Anyway, I really agree that Mark Nicholas is a ****!!

[Ernest]

If the PC has no modem Richie bin it

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Well, it is true that Adam Hollioake was a good captin of the good ship Surrey, and I won't say anything against the bloke, who is throughly decent, likeable and hardworking. Still, I never really saw him as a England Captin and I was very happy England didn't, cause he belongs to us

Nicholas' desciption of Hollioake's as the best captain England never had strikes me as absolutely spot on: the guy had the misfortune to be at his peak when the English management were at their most myopic.. and it strikes me that like Bicknell.. he got very, very badly neglected.

My suspicion is that if he'd had the chances Flintoff has had.. we'd have had our bright young all-rounder grabbing all the headlines a decade earlier... but even if he'd not hit quite that level... his captaincy would, surely, have ensured he carried the Team for a decade or so.

Instead we got bloody Stewart. Worst captain we ever DID have? Could be.

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Instead we got bloody Stewart. Worst captain we ever DID have? Could be.

That would I.T Bothem, I think!!

Although old Stewart was never a great choice..slightly flucky series win against South Africa not withstanding

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

That would be I.T. Botham, I think!!

Kirsty that's a bit myopic. Botham, for all his bluster and tactlessness behind a Sky microphone, knew the game pretty well on the field. I believe he only captained in eleven Tests, nine v. an awesome West Indian side (of which he lost three only, tell that to Gower (1984, 0-5) and Gooch (1988, 0-4), Botham's home series (1980, 0-1) looks a bit better.
And in case you question "awesome," I'm talking about: Haynes, Greenidge, Richards, Bacchus (ah the weak link), Kallicharran, King, Murray, Marshall, Holding, Garner & Croft. That was the line up for the Oval Test, Clive Lloyd played the rest of the series until he was injured at Edgbaston and made way for Collis King.

That WAS an awesome side.

Granted he lost one and drew one against Kim Hughes' Australians, but I would think it would be quite sapping to play nine Tests in a row against a line up like that one above.
Still, I'm happy that he resigned when he did. Else we would never have seen the heroics that followed later that summer.

And there's another chap whose career did not benefit from even more myopic ECB medical advice.

[Rachael]

Surely the problem with Botham as captain was not anything he did / din't do tacticaly.. but the fact that he was a complete ***hole whose dressing-room influence (even pre-promotion) was appalling... helping Broad, Lamb, Smith and co render the entire outfit virtually unmanageable law unto itself... and turning the dressing room itself into one in which only very strong minded, outgoing characters who liked what they liked could ever really settle: the Gooch and Fletcher years may go down as ones in which the "does the face fit" question dominated selection.. but the Botham years were surely worse... making the English football dressingroom of the Keegan-Sheerer era (if you didn't play poker and pratt around, don't bother) seem quite innocuous.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Surely the problem with Botham as captain was not anything he did / din't do tacticaly.. but the fact that he was a complete ***hole whose dressing-room influence (even pre-promotion) was appalling... helping Broad, Lamb, Smith and co render the entire outfit virtually unmanageable law unto itself... and turning the dressing room itself into one in which only very strong minded, outgoing characters who liked what they liked could ever really settle:

I realise how strong your views are Rachael, but if you're going to say it like it is... for God's sake, say it like it is with the real players.

Allan Lamb began his Test career in the First Test v. India at Lords in 1982 under the captaincy of Bob Willis.
Chris Broad began his Test career in the First Test v. West Indies at Lords in 1984 under the captaincy of David Gower.
Robin Smith (I assume you meant him - because I know how little you like his style of play) began his Test career in the Fourth Test v. West Indies at Leeds in 1988 under the captaincy of Chris Cowdrey.

Apologies to Graham Gooch, I forgot that he did not complete his West Indian summer in 1988, of course that was the year when every other useless allrounder was given the job as well. God forbid Adam Hollioake being given the job... lucky us, too late now.

Anyway, the side of weak willed characters that Botham captained in the first Test of the 1980 summer v. The West Indies, was Gooch, Boycott, Tavare, Woolmer, Gower, Botham, Willey, Knott, Lever, Willis, Hendrick.

Not exactly a team formed, by or even for Botham, pretty much players who were going to play whether he liked it or not.
In those days there were rather upper crust selectors who weren't going to listen to a Somerset oiks suggestions.
Not strictly true as he did manage to get Brian Rose his county captain on board before the end of the summer... but you presumably get my meaning.

Boycott, Gooch, Willey, and Willis were all strong minded individuals and three of the four of them were pretty near the best we had. Gower was the best, Woolmer was considered to be the best player of fast bowling in county cricket, I don't think this is a side that would have wilted particularly in the face of Botham's dressing room influence.