Man of the Series India vs. Pakistan Test Series

[Paoli]

Maranello, I thought Sachin was in top nick, judging from a highlights package and what i hear....

[imaginarydiva]

Well judging from what I SAW Sachin was in excellent touch..Ok,not as flamboyant as ever,but he later revelaed that it was because of the side screens which were distracting him.So,I am happy for him.And I really don't think he has anything to prove.He's already achieved so much,he can let his bat do the talking.And honestly,even if (god forbid) does pathetically from now one,that doesn't erase the genius in him,atleast for me.

[Milo]

It has been a very very long time since SRT has looked the best player in an Indian innings. There is now always someone who looks a better batsman. Very sad for all cricket lovers.

[imaginarydiva]

To me,it wasn't that long ago...his 24th Hundred,even if it came against the minnows was a class act.

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Milo

It has been a very very long time since SRT has looked the best player in an Indian innings. There is now always someone who looks a better batsman. Very sad for all cricket lovers.

Exactly my sentiments Milo; he would have been remembered as a greater batsman had he retired 2 or 3 years ago. Soldiering on as he has done, without ever dominating the bowlers for whole sessions of play, does his legacy no credit. Sure, he is the best batsman of his era and no one can take that away from him, but surely his position in the all-time pantheon would have been higher a few years ago?

[Zainub]

Retire to get a higher rating in the all time hall of fame? I can assure you M that Sachin is not that selfish.

He's changed the style he bats in now-a-days partially for the team's sake, realising that since there are plenty of great talents around in the Indian team, people like Sehwag and Laxman in particular who play in quite blazing fashion, so he might as well curb himself a little bit to give the batting order some stability (Ganguly's a bit of dasher too, and he's not been in lightenning form of late, and everyone can't be coming out there with the intention of blasting oppositions out)

And we've also got to realise that he's no longer Sachin the 18 year old, he's Sachin the 31 year old, someone who has been around for a long time, 18 years to be precise. His body (as proved by the Tennis Elbow injury and the time he took to recover from it) is now more vulnerable to injuries then before, so he is understandably trying to reduce some of his work load by cutting down on the strokes he plays (and probably in doing so prolong his career by 2 to 3 years). Its completely understanable. And I think it is unjustified for people (especially those who claim to be his fans) to ask him to go back to his old ways. Entertaining people after all is only one of his jobs, he has other things to consider too.

And I disagree entirely on how this might affect his status as being a legend, I don't think the Sachin we are seeing now is much that different from the Sachin of 5,6,7 whatever years ago, its only that he's playing more circumspectly now-a-days, especially at the start of his innings. And the fact that he's continued to score runs and just be as affective even in this new frame of mind is a further testimony (if one was ever was needed) to his greatness. I don't think this new approach has done or will do anything for that matter to change or to affect or modify his status as being the or one of the greatest batsman of his era.

In fact its ridiculous I think that people are lamenting the loss of the Sachin of old, being a Pakistani fan I've been at the receiving end of a few great innings of his off late, 199 not out in Multan and 90 odd in Mohali and 140 odd in one-day match in Pindi (which India lost), each of these was a class act, and although the test knocks were both overshadowed by Sehwag's heriocs, and also by the fact that in both innings he was given a few lives by our butter fingered fielders it doesn't discredit the fact that they were runs in the end - big runs too

Just look back at the 240 odd he scored in Sydney year before last, I don't know how anyone can say that wasn't domilation of the Aussie attack - yes, Sachin didn't score all round the ground in that innings too, but one of his most productive areas if I'm not wrong in that innnings was straight down the ground, either side of the bowler's run up, and usually those are the most difficult areas to score of, not because they are always protected by fielders, they're mostly not, but because the on, off and straight drives are 3 of the toughest shots to execute and whatever you might argue it still was a big, big test hundred, a double hundred as a matter of fact, it also can't be forgotten that it almost won India the match (and the series), India came something like 2 or 3 wickets within winning, (and might have won had Ganguly not batted twice or batting for so long in the first place)

Eventually runs are runs, if they come in blasting fashion at a stike of 80 odd (like they do for Sehwag) or if they come in more restrained fashion (after a guy has been dropped) ...or what ever the circumstances are...runs are still runs.. Sachin's still the classiest batsmen around for me, perhaps by a distance too. He's far from finished too. He'll be in the 2007 WC hands down, and a pretty safe bet to defend his man of the tournament title too, in fact I'll not be completely surprised even if he lasts until the 2011 world cup, by which time he must be 42 (if i.e. I'm getting my mathematics right!) He's just 31 after all, and compared to Glenn McGrath's (who is 36) that's nothing, 5 more years left in him for sure, if he pushes on, may even 6 or 7

[Rachael]

I've not followed Tendulkar's career closely enough to know where this is all coming from but I've just looked at the stats and can only make partial sense of the fuss.

The guy has played 121 Tests.. so if we leave out the first 100 and look at recent form we should see some sort of meaningful pattern.

Filter: most recent 21 matches.
Sort order: chronological. 


                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           121  194  21  9973 248* 241* 217   57.64  34  39  12
filtered              21   34   6  1568 248* 241* 194*  56.00   4   5   2



Series         Win   Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

West Indies in India, 2002/03 [Series]
               Ind     3    5   1   306 176   43   36   76.50   1   0   0
India in New Zealand, 2002/03 [Series]
                NZ     2    4   0   100  51   32    9   25.00   0   1   0
New Zealand in India, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     2    4   0    71  55    8    7   17.75   0   1   0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in Australia, 2003/04 [Series]
                 -     4    7   2   383 241*  60*  44   76.60   1   1   2
India in Pakistan, 2003/04 [Series]
               Ind     3    4   1   205 194*   8    2   68.33   1   0   0
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Aus/Ind) in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Aus     2    4   0    70  55    8    5   17.50   0   1   0
South Africa in India, 2004/05 [Series]
               Ind     2    3   1    55  32*  20    3   27.50   0   0   0
India in Bangladesh, 2004/05 [Series]
               Ind     2    2   1   284 248*  36    -  284.00   1   0   0
Pakistan in India, 2004/05 [Series]
                 -     1    1   0    94  94    -    -   94.00   0   1   0

So it looks like the guy had 4 Tests vs. NZ in which he didn't manage to dominate.. followed by 7 Tests against Australia and Pakistan that included an unbeaten double century (241*), an unbeaten 191*, an unbeaten 60*and so on... then 7 matches against Australia and South Africa in which he failed to dominate.. before 3 further Tests against Bangladesh and Pakistan in which he's cleaned up massively.

In all that time he's managed to average just 56 to his career average of 57.64.

It's not enough to prove anything.. but it seems a bit early to start writing him off.

[Zainub]

So it looks like the guy had 4 Tests vs. NZ in which he didn't manage to dominate..

Two of which were played arguably on the worst test surfaces seen in recent history (entire series finished without even a single batsman reaching a 50, let alone 100 or more)

[Milo]

You both miss the point. When assessing which batsmen are one or two notches above the rest, we do not only look at the number of runs the players score but also the manner in which they get them (when, where and how). This is why nobody talks about Ken Barrington as an all-time great although his average is better than Sobers. Same with Viv, he averages less than Andy Flower.

What Tendulkar used to do was show that he was the best in the world, not only by the runs he scored, but also by the way he played the game, dominating bowlers, playing shots others could only dream of and making the game look exceptionally easy. Now, he looks no better than Sehwag, he looks worse than Dravid (and has done since the 200 tour to England) and when Laxman flows (as he did during SRT's 240 in Sydney), then Tendulkar looks clearly average - no better than 20 other batsmen in world cricket.

His average is now still maintained through a small number of very large (often unbeaten) big centuries/double centuries littered among a great many single figure failures. India may see the benefit of his new way of batting (although I would argue this), but the world of cricket is surely not now blown away by anything Tendulkar manages to do. A very sad situation - a genius has shown he is no better than the rest.

I for one, would place him pretty low down on the list of players to pay money to watch now.

[Paoli]

Originally Posted by Milo

I for one, would place him pretty low down on the list of players to pay money to watch now

I'd still pay my hard earned to see Sachin...He is the best, hands down......At the moment, you'd go to see your Kallis', Flintoff's, Pietersen's, Clarke's, Ponting's, Warne's, Lara's, Sehwag's, Dravid's, Blignaut's, Ashraful's, Marshall's Youhana's so on...But these are big names...But not Sachin's.