Thats not too bad for a finger spinner though. Theres usually not much in the wicket first up.

I agree with this though, Vettori is a master at tying batsmen down using subtle variations in flight and pace.

.Ditto and a probable series defeat for England unless they either

a) bat brilliantly today / tomorrow.

b) add some penetration to the bowling for the last test and change the batting.

For me, at least Broad and Colly have to be serious doubts for the next test.

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Mark.

Just logged on to internet p_c - the England batting is up to it's usual briliance I see.
We landed in Majorca in rain, this England performance is even more gloomy at least the weather is set good here tomorrow.

Rachael - you still happy with this side?.

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Ern

Believe it or not England are off to a solid start! Theres still a long way to go and a collapse is always possible with England.

In some ways I not sure if i want England to win as we will carry on with the same team etc, when a couple of changes need to be made and also hopefully Vaughan will then get the team he wants.

Ern, I hope the weather improves I'm off to that part of the world in a fortnight

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Mark.

Congratulations to Monty Panesar on 100 wickets. The Channel 5 commentary reminds me of how much I hate Mark Nicholas. I'd rather have Brian Blessed on commentary.

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Frank Skinner: "You know when Glenn McGrath trod on that cricket ball? Don't you wish it would've been a landmine?"

NZ should win this test, just after lunch on day 4.

Well I can't speak for every commentator Rachael, but I certainly know that Will Luke as an assistant editor at Cricinfo probably knows less about cricket than I do. So I'm not sure I'd hold him up as a shining light to follow.

I prefer, as you well know, to judge things on what my own eyes tell me. And Panesars figures of - 22 overs, 1 maiden 101 -1 econ 4.59, vindcates what I originally said - that the conditions did not suit him and it was wrong to have bowled him so early and the figures reflect that.

Panesar admitted this himself in interview - I didn't hit my straps in the first innings because I was bowling from the wrong end. The conventional wisdom of spinners bowling into the wind didn't work for me because I was dropping the ball too short and when I did get it on the right length it wasn't turning...

It's also wrong to automatically assume that Panesar will do as well as Vettori. We've been through this before and I've always said that Vettori does better on surfaces where there's little assistance because of his subtle variations. Where Panesar will outbowl Vettori is when conditions do suit him as witnessed today where he was virtually unplayable. This is because Panesar rips the ball more than Vettori and will therefore always get more out of a turning pitch than Vettori will.

Panesar outbowled Vettori today and that's the reason why.

Well I don't agree I'm afraid. Englands seamers served up a load of rubbish in the first innings and really laboured to bowl NZ out. They bowled too short, too wide and too many bouncers.

If they want to win test matches it needs to be a lot better.

Don't agree, for the reasons I've already given. Vaughan HAD to bowl Panesar, even when the conditions didn't suit him, because he has no 4th seamer to turn to, and Panesars poor first innings figures, are a direct result of this.

England didn't exert any pressure at all in that first innings and the score the Kiwi's scored is a direct result.

Spot on! My wife knows little about cricket and I reckon she knows as much as most of the cricinfo journos

They also struggled in the second. I really hope England lose this test as its the only way we can get the changes to the team that are needed. The 3 current seamers lack the consistency and above all the penetration at test level. Make no bones about it there's nothing special whatsoever in this NZ batting line up, yet if it wasn't for Panesar England would be dead and buried in this match.

There was helpful conditions at Lords and yet they struggled to bowl NZ out, they had a pitch with a bit of pace and bounce here yet were unthreatening........

Sidebottoms out of his purple patch. Broad lack pace and will never be a prolific test wicket taker (but a very useful 5th bowler) and Anderson is far too inconsistent to also be part of a 4 man attack.

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Mark.

Thy're playing a lot more positively this second innings than the first. They allowed Vettori to pin them to the crease and bowl at them, this time they're working him away for singles, feigning coming down the pitch, coming down the pitch and using their feet more to him. Those quick singles are irritating him with that left and right hand partnership.

Englands problems will come when Vettori get's to bowl at two right handers as he tends to bowl a lot better at them than lefties. Presumably because he can take the ball away from them. Bowling at lefties is virtually off spin for a SLA.

If England continue as they're going I see no reason why they can't chase these runs down. However, playing positively brings its own risks and a successful chase will require a certain amount of luck on this pitch and with a bowler of Vettori's skill.

I don't beleive Vettori will be as hard to play as Panesar, as he doesn't rip the ball enough to get the fast spitting bouncing turn that Panesar gets. That's not to say he won't be a handful, but if they play late and off the back foot, knocking him away for singles they could survive long enough to track down those runs.

Well I always like to see England win, but I know what you mean. They don't really deserve to win this match - up till now they've not played well enough to win it. They both know how critical this game is, the winner (and I can't see there not being one unless the weather cruelly intervenes) goes one up in the series and the best the other can do is draw.

Who wants it? If they lose it, it could be 1999 all over again.

I think they did better in the second innings than the first, but I think that was caused directly by the pressure Panesar was exerting at one end. The batsmen so struggled against Panesar they targetted the seamers as the seamer figures really aren't that bad -

Sidebottom 2-26
Anderson 1-21
Broad 0-19

I also think that Panesar ripped through them so quickly the others didn't have a chance to put up poor figures! Panesar really caused problems this afternoon, he was in his element - he had it all, bowling with the wind, turn and bounce.

McCullum was simply bamboozled by every ball Panesar bowled. The first one was a close LBW shout, the second one, bounced, turned, fizzed and spat off the wicket McCullum simply didn't know how to deal with and the third caught him plumb LBW trying to sweep.

I think they lack a spearhead - an Andrew Flintoff.

When Panesar doesn't get the right conditions, none of the current seamers can provide sustained pressure. Siidebottom get's the closest to doing it, but in a 4 or 5 man attack, you cannt expect it to be carried by one seamer. What they need is a streetwise thug who can bully these batsmen out of their comfort zones with some fast, nasty hostile bowling. A little like Anderson was trying to do in the first innings.

It's almost as if England don't have any new ball strike bowlers, all three of the current seamers all seem like second change bowlers to me.

Sidebottoms strength is consistency, accuracy and swing movement. When any or all of those go AWOL, he's a very ordinary bowler, bowling early 80's medium fast.

Broad is a developing bowler. He's still young and inexperienced and as such is an excellent second change support bowler or even a future allrounder, but he's not yet good enough to perform as part of a three man attack or as an opening bowling

I agree.

If England could get Flintoff and Jones back, then a 5 man attack of Flintoff, Jones, Sidebottom, Broad and Panesar looks very promising to me.

Broad solves the no8 slot, that they've been looking to fill and for my money he does a good job as a second change support bowler and a No8 batsman. For that reason I think he's going to feature in this side for some time. If they could add in those two 90mph pacemen in Flintoff and Jones, and drop Anderson and a batsman, the balance would be about right.

Why doesn't Vaughan practice what he preaches ???

It was his innings in the first innings that turned a fairly up beat opening stanza into a dour slow moving graft.

Is Vaughan a protected species immune from criticism ?