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View Poll Results: Pick your all-rounder
Kapil Dev (India) 5 29.41%
Imran Khan (Pakistan) 14 82.35%
Andrew Flintoff (England) 1 5.88%
Ian Botham (England) 11 64.71%
Jaques Kallis (South Africa) 5 29.41%
Clive Rice (South Africa) 0 0%
Chris Cairns (New Zealand) 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2008, 08:18 AM
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World XI - 1980 onwards - All Rounder Poll

Right then, it's time for the all-rounders and possibly the toughest pick so far. We are looking to pick one from this catagory. The player will bat at 6 and support the two chosen pace bowlers (we will have two spinners).

We are picking from;

Kapil Dev (India)
Imran Khan (Pakistan)
Flintoff (England)
Botham (England)
Kallis (South Africa)
Rice (South Africa)
Chris Cairns (New Zealand)

What interests me, and the vote isn't going to change, but how close are the likes of Warne, Hadlee, Marshall and Wasim to being classed as all-rounders? I personally think that with those players and Murali at 11, you could afford to have a batting wicket keeper at 6.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:23 AM in reply to The Phantom Ram's post "World XI - 1980 onwards - All Rounder..."
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I have voted for 3 - Kapil, Imran and Botham. I have no idea who will be my final choice.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:26 AM in reply to The Phantom Ram's post starting "I have voted for 3 - Kapil, Imran and..."
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I've picked the two who I think would be better-suited to no. 6- Imran and Kallis. Botham batted at 6 for a long time I know, but personally I think Imran was a batter bowler and batsman, and on pur batting ability Kallis is the best one listed.
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:01 PM in reply to Aurelius's post starting "I've picked the two who I think would..."
sanketh84 sanketh84 is offline
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Kapil Dev, Imran Khan and Ian Botham are my choices. I think my final one just might be Ian Botham as the rest two are bowling allrounders but Ian Botham had genuine talent in both departments, Flintoff has potential to reach Botham's level but still has a long way to go.
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:45 AM in reply to sanketh84's post starting "Kapil Dev, Imran Khan and Ian Botham..."
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To argue that Kapil, Cairns or Flintoff are anywhere near the class of Imran, Botham, Kallis or Rice is laughable - those three shouldn't really be on this list. As for the other four, Rice wasn't a Test player and Kallis is a batsman who can bowl a bit.

That leaves Imran and Botham, inarguably the two best all-rounders of the last 30 years. Which one was better? Statiscally, Imran. But a much better guide would be to see how they fared against each other - the tour of 1982 tells us that. Botham was in his prime, in the batting and bowling form of his life, while Imran was still learning his trade as a batsman and was a very novice captain. Yet over the course of that summer, Imran not only comprehensively out-bowled and out-batted Botham, he almost won the series for Pakistan. He went on from that summer to become the one of the all-time fast bowling greats and a genuine middle-order bat; Botham went on to become an over-weight has-been.
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Old 03-08-2008, 07:39 AM in reply to Maranello's post starting "To argue that Kapil, Cairns or Flintoff..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maranello View Post
Botham went on to become an over-weight has-been.
I am currently going through the same process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maranello View Post
To argue that Kapil, Cairns or Flintoff are anywhere near the class of Imran, Botham, Kallis or Rice is laughable.
I think that is bit harsh on Kapil who over 131 tests averaged 31.05 (5248 runs and 6 centuries) with the bat and 29.64 (434 wickets) with the ball.
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Old 03-08-2008, 10:18 AM in reply to The Phantom Ram's post starting "I am currently going through the same..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phantom Ram View Post
I think that is bit harsh on Kapil who over 131 tests averaged 31.05 (5248 runs and 6 centuries) with the bat and 29.64 (434 wickets) with the ball.
The bowling returns are flattered by often being the only real seam bowler in the attack - hence the chap's bound to pick up the odd wicket or two. Nevertheless, I'd argue that a bowling average of 30 runs per wicket (almost 35% to 40% worse than the likes of Imran, Hadlee, Lillee etc) and around 3 wickets per Test is not, by any stretch, a record that merits World XI consideration.
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:35 PM in reply to Maranello's post starting "The bowling returns are flattered by..."
sanketh84 sanketh84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maranello View Post
The bowling returns are flattered by often being the only real seam bowler in the attack - hence the chap's bound to pick up the odd wicket or two. Nevertheless, I'd argue that a bowling average of 30 runs per wicket (almost 35% to 40% worse than the likes of Imran, Hadlee, Lillee etc) and around 3 wickets per Test is not, by any stretch, a record that merits World XI consideration.
Very harsh on Kapil, Maranello, that he shouldn't even be considered, he was the only real seam bowler in the side but it takes something to get the wickets he did...cant just be sheer luck!!! Its like rubbishing away Warne's or Murali's feat in this day and age.

Here's what Cricinfo/ Wisden has to say about him
Quote:
Kapil Dev was the greatest pace bowler India has produced, and their greatest fast-bowling allrounder. If he had played at any other time - not when Imran Khan, Ian Botham and Richard Hadlee were contemporaries - he would surely have been recognised as the best allrounder in the world. In any case he did enough to be voted India's Cricketer of the Century during 2002, ahead of Sunil Gavaskar and Sachin Tendulkar. His greatest feats were to lead India almost jauntily, and by his allround example, to the 1983 World Cup, and to take the world-record aggregate of Test wickets from Hadlee. It was the stamina of the marathon runner that took him finally to 431 wickets and only a yard beyond. He might not have been quite the bowling equal of Imran, Hadlee or Botham at his best, and his strike rate was less than four wickets per Test. But he was still outstanding in his accuracy and ability to swing the ball, usually away from right-handers. And he could hit a ball even more brilliantly than he bowled it, with uncomplicated flair.
He might not be as good as Botham, Khan or Hadlee but really deserves to be shortlisted for this squad. Being an Indian myself I have chosen Botham as my final pick, lets call a spade a spade.!!!

Last edited by sanketh84 : 03-08-2008 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:48 PM in reply to sanketh84's post starting "Very harsh on Kapil, Maranello, that he..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanketh84 View Post
Very harsh on Kapil, Maranello, that he shouldn't even be considered
Sorry, I never meant to imply he was useless; far from it. He was good but not very good or a great; Kapil was an Inzamam or a Mark Waugh, but never a Dravid or a Kallis (let alone a Richards or a Lara). Hence, he's not a World XI pick, or even a squad member (assuming we are talking normal squads of 16).

As far as the post-80 team goes, Imran, Botham and Hadlee would all be in anyone's squad (of 16); the inclusion of Kapil or Cairns etc would mean that we are including the good / very good, and not just the 'great'; extend that approach to batting or pace bowling, and you'd end up with a squad of 60, not 16!
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:52 PM in reply to Maranello's post starting "Sorry, I never meant to imply he was..."
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I think that it is a straight choice between Imran and Botham for the allrounder role (Hadlee should make it as a bowler anyway) and i would be happy with either of them,the thing we need to do is forget the Botham who was fat and wobbly and a shadow of his former self once injured from 86 onwards and choose between the Botham at his peak and the Imran at his.

A tough choice but just because the England selectors kept picking Botham when he shouldn't have been it shouldn't harm his chances of being picked in this side when you look at overall stats.
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