The Ashes 2006/07: The Brisbane Test Thread - Day Two

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Notts Exile

Strauss needs shooting. I thought Cook got a good ball. Collingwood played a very poor cricket shot to a stock delivery that wasn't truly dangerous.

When Strauss looked to dominate McGrath the last time the pair met he was praised for it. It was no riskier a stroke than several Langer played.... and whilst I prefer the more measured approach of openers like Atherton.... Strauss's effort to ride his luck put him in famous company in modern cricket.

I'd agree that the delivery to got Cook was excellent: it would have been unplayable for pretty much any batsman with dubious footwork... including the likes of Sehwag, Gayle and Tresco. We expect Cook to do rather better because his footwork is generally excellent... but no shame in that dismissal for a batsman who is new to the crease.

Collingwood's delivery has no such redeeming aspect: another good ball.. but looking to play it on the move betrays the influence of ODI cricket.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I expected these two not to be reliable, but was dissapointed with Collingwood.

Of course we are seeing some gloating, but Australia won in 2005 at Lords, and England have not lost this yet.

You say it as if Collingwood is more dependable than Strauss! Collingwood shouldn't be in the team, simple as. People can talk all they want about how 'gritty' and what a 'fighter' he is, the hard facts are that he isn't the best man we could put in that position and in the long run won't be good enough for test matches.

And though we got cained at Lords, it was totally different. We had a fit and firing attack and at least showed when the Aussie's first came out to bat that we meant business. There were positives from that game, the only positivE from this game is Freddie, the lone ranger.

[Notts Exile]

Originally Posted by Pete

And though we got cained at Lords, it was totally different. We had a fit and firing attack and at least showed when the Aussie's first came out to bat that we meant business. There were positives from that game, the only positivE from this game is Freddie, the lone ranger.

I agree with the first part. So far the only positive is Freddie. Bell, KP and Jones haven't had their chance yet. They could dig us out of this hole.

[gibbs_fan]

Originally Posted by Ernest

keep thinking like that greg - don't let the pessismists get at you, the match is not over yet, and even if England don't make this one, they can regroupe as in 2005.

Ponting and Langer have got Australia into this possition, they demoralised the poor England bowling, KP and Flinoff and Bell may as well go after Warne and Mcgrath, so good standing there waiting to get out.

With all due respect Ern, I like your optimism but I must inform you that this time is far different from 2005. I feel that it will be impossible for England to turn the series around if they go down in this test because of the following reasons:

1) As you might notice, this series is played in Australia not in England. Harmison is absolute rubbish anywhere outside of England and he is a key part of Englands bowling ( without him, I doubt they will be able to bowl the Aussies out often enough to win the series). There is no reverse swing in Australia which England used to such good effect to destroy the Aussie top order.

2) Englands bowling attack is poor. The key to Englands success was the fact that they had a bowling attack capable of bowling Australia out for less than 400 every time. I doubt that this can be achieved by Englands current bowlers. Fletcher is too stupid to play Panesar and Mahmood. This pitch would have suited Mahmood( Far better bowler than Anderson IMO) especially. I bet Fletcher will bring Mahmood into one of the tests with a spinners wicket. Then Mahmood will struggle and all the critics will attack him again.

3) Mike Hussey, need I elaborate. He did not play in the previous ashes. He IMO is better than any England batsman and he will score runs unlike Simon Cabbage whom he replaced.

4) Michael Vaughn. While he never really scores runs, his captaincy is sorely missed. Tactically he is a master and I feel that he gives the team a belief that they can win. Flitoff does not get the same out of his players.

5) Ponting is on form this time round and the whole Aussie team are determined to win back the ashes. You point out that Gilchrist, Hayden and Martyn wont score during the series, well I would like to point out that those 3 batsmen will still score more runs than ( Jones, Collingwood and Cook).

6) Stuart Clark was the right pick for this match, I saw him destroy SA and he will do the same to England. He gives nothing away. Johnson or Tait would have bowled like Anderson.

I can go on and on but I do not have all day. Let me just say that I thought that this would be a close series
, I will have to est my words. I predicted a 2-2 draw or 2-1 victory for Aus but now I will have to ssay that it will be 3-1 to Aus (Flitoff is an outstanding player and I still back him to help England to win 1 test match).

[gibbs_fan]

Originally Posted by Rachael

I'd agree that the delivery to got Cook was excellent: it would have been unplayable for pretty much any batsman with dubious footwork... including the likes of Sehwag, Gayle and Tresco. We expect Cook to do rather better because his footwork is generally excellent... but no shame in that dismissal for a batsman who is new to the crease.

Collingwood's delivery has no such redeeming aspect: another good ball.. but looking to play it on the move betrays the influence of ODI cricket.

Ah Rachael. Why do you keeping bringing up the same points. Let me say I find it quite insulting that you can claim that Gayle and Sehwag would not have been able to play that ball. I do not want to get into a debate with you about batting techniques but I will point out that technique means very little, if not nothing. I would like to say that Gayle would probably have left that ball. You keep picking on Gayle and Sehwag, and keep praising ordinary players like Atherton and Collingwood. I would like to inform you that both Sehwag and Gayle average more than Atherton and since they both play test cricket, I assume that the opposition is more or less the same. Note Steve Waugh never had a good technique, neither did viv Richards but they are considered great players whereas Atherton is only an ordinary player.

Collingwood IMO is a county player and nothing more. He is not good enough to play test cricket. He is a fighter yes but he will be found wanting against any decent attack. Please acknowledge the contributions of players like Sehwag and Gayle. They did not make the world team as sloggers, they made it as batsmen. Also note that not a single "technically correct" english batsmen made the world XI.

Some of your comments are really quite bizarre. Are you sure that you are watching the same cricket as the rest of the world

[Notts Exile]

Originally Posted by gibbs_fan

Some of your comments are really quite bizarre. Are you sure that you are watching the same cricket as the rest of the world

Therein lies the reason for some of the comments.

As you rightly say, technique is almost completely irrelevant.

[Mr Hutt]

Originally Posted by Ernest

No excuse for top class batsemn getting out to McGrath in such a manner, then again Strauss even though can get scores in not dependable.

Cook should never have been in the side, fancy playing a rookie against Australia in their own back yard.

I expected these two not to be reliable, but was dissapointed with Collingwood.

It's the bowling that let England down, Harmison was always a gamble after his terrible series against South Africa, Hoggard rusty as you like, and Anderson is now rewarding Fletcher for all them months as a tea boy.

Dropping Warne did not help either.

England still could get 400, you never know - the top order like I have been saying is now out, and must be changed for the second test.

Of course we are seeing some gloating, but Australia won in 2005 at Lords, and England have not lost this yet.

Top class batsmen faced with a a 403 just to save a follow on deal with demons called pressure, this is what it does to you.

I have saidit before and ill say it again... horrible ODI form has now carried over to the test matches, now England are faced with a true dilemma, even if they would have played Monty and Mahmood the result on this pitch would be not that different, im afraid England is out of luck and woefully being outperformed in the enemies back yard, its that simple. Say they lose this test what can they change??? They are neither bowling(except for flintoff who i regard as almost superhuman now) nor fielding nor batting like the side they were in 2005, infact although most of you english fans are quite steadfast need to wake up and smell the coffee this aint 2005 and this is not the same team. Heck this has not been the same team since Simon Jones and Vaughn got injured and i dont see them getting better. Its not about being a pessimist or gloating Ern its about being realistic. If you saw some of the England players reactions and body language, they lack hunger except for Flintoff!!

[Oliver]

So anyone else think the England team has been on a gradual slide back to the bottom of the heap since Rod Marsh left the coaching staff?

I was fascinated by which members of the current squad came out to back Fletcher after Boycott's volley of abuse two weeks ago.

Fletcher's chief defenders were Collingwood, Geraint Jones and Giles. Now I wonder what they have in common.

Could it be merely that I wouldn't've picked any of them for the first Test?

Well that's certainly true, but I think they have stronger connections than that. All three, get superb backing from England's coach. Almost as though they are all world beaters, in truth they are workmanlike cricketers with more grit than skill.

I am still outraged by the total lack of man-management skills Fletcher continues to expose.

Perhaps we will never know what truly decided Trescothick to come (and then go).
Perhaps Collingwood will one day prove that he truly is a top class batsman against a top class attack.
Perhaps Giles IS currently the best (and most effective) slow left-armer at England's disposal.
Perhaps Geraint Jones; no, I just can't bring myself to say anything nice about him - he is so clearly NOT a nice man. Witness his articles in the Metro (a truly ghastly London freebie).
Perhaps Mahmoud will one day play a match for England in which he gets a bowl (ooh., can't do that - he might look better than Harmison).
Perhaps Flintoff's captaincy will look as shrewd and intelligent as Mike Brearley's before the end of this series.
"Yes it's all right lads, keep bowling bouncers, one of them's bound to be caught eventually."
Perhaps Flintoff's form will remain as undimmed as was Andrew Strauss' with the burden of the captaincy.
Perhaps Michael Vaughan will be sent BACK to England (please) rather than waiting within the gathering pack of media vultures for that chance to play in the Third Test in order to save us all from massive embarrassment.

Perhaps Lord MacLaurin will be trumpeted back into his former office, Rod Marsh will take up the recently dropped reins, and England will once again traverse the divide between the appalling and the almost quite good.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by gibbs_fan

I find it quite insulting that you can claim that Gayle and Sehwag would not have been able to play that ball. [...] You keep picking on Gayle and Sehwag, and keep praising ordinary players like Atherton and Collingwood.

Cook was dismissed because he was caught on the crease: the ball was not technically "unplayable" since merely getting the bat and pad 15" further forward would have covered any deviation off the seam... but not even Lara could have got that ball in the middle of the bat from stuck in the crease (the deviation was small but significant) and no competent batsman on earth would have advocated leaving the delivery (as the line was on / around off stump before the deviation off the pitch).

In short... for any batsman who struggles to get forward... the ball was unplayable.

Originally Posted by gibbs_fan

I would like to inform you that both Sehwag and Gayle average more than Atherton and since they both play test cricket, I assume that the opposition is more or less the same.

Atherton was not a "great" player... and would not even make a post war England XI (losing out to Hutton and Boycott) but he was good enough to prosper in an era prior to the flat tracks, dire bowling and grossly inflated batting averages of today. That said.. he was rarely caught on the crease as Cook was today: that ain't rocket science (as Mark Richardson proved)... but it eludes more talented players than Atherton!

ps. Gower prospered in an era prior to Atherton... and without great footwork... so there's no reason to suppose Gayle (obviously talented) would have struggled in Atherton's era - though he might have had to settle for playing as a middle-order batsman rather than as an opener.

[DomainK]

England have to pay the price for ignoring cricket for the Ahses. If you think you can lose all other matches/tournaments in any form of the game because you are preparing for Ashes, you will probably lose this one as well.

I am still hoping that England wins. The team has the talent.