When the Aussies came over in 2005 the England team was hyped up as far, far better than most of others of recent vintage.... and the ODI successes of the early summer seemed to back this up. Then came Lords... and the bubble burst: this current crew were revealed to be as inept with the bat as ANY crew England had EVER fielded.... and in truth, very little of the England batting over the subsequent four Tests was that much better.

Of course, in 2005 it didn't really matter: Hussey, Hodge and Watson were sent home, McGrath stood on a ball, Ponting put England in, Lee and co gifted runs in ways that even Bangladesh would have accepted, luck intervened with a crucial wicket just as the 2nd Test (and Ashes) looked like being lost against the run of play, the Duke ball was pulverised on abrasive outfields and started reversing for a fully fit and on fire Simon Jones and Flintoff, allowing England to make the much vaunted Aussie batsmen (and especially Hayden, Martyn and Gilchrist) look like over-rated muppets, and as if that were not enough, optimum conditions at a crucial moment at Trent Bridge allowed Hoggard and Jones to bowl some of the best spells of conventional swing seen in Test cricket for many, many years.

My own view in 2005 was that the side was actually pretty much on a par with the very respectable sides of the 1990s: sides that were crushed by stunning Aussie opposition... but which would in turn have taken the gifts on offer from the Aussies (rather as Gatting's lot did against "the worst Aussie side ever" the last time England won the Ashes).

Eighteen months on... and the hype has been replaced by absurd rubbishing of most of the same players that were previously hailed: did they suddenly get worse? In some cases, perhaps form has been less impressive... but {a} winning down under with Kookaburra balls has always been tougher... and {b} the Aussie side ain't looked as pathetic as it did.

I'm as irate with the damning criticisms being heard now as I was throutghout the 1990s: as I watch today's highlights (second time around) I'm struck that England were actually damn close to running through this Aussie line up. I'm reminded that England DID do this in the first innings of this match. I'm struck that the Adelaide Test was pretty evenly contested until close to the end and that the Brisbane performance, however poor, was no worse than the Lords performance of 18 months earlier!

How about we get a sense of perspective back here: 2005 wasn't that great and 2006/07 isn't too bad. In fact, the cricket has actually been far better for anyone prepared to stop worrying about national alliegence and just enjoy good performances from world-class players!

Way stronger than anything from 1990-2002, but the 2003-05 team was the best English team for a long time. We just have to hope this team can get itself going like they did, and there is certainly enough talent for that to be the case.

Stronger than when Gough, Caddick and the reverse-swinging, 90+mph Craig White were on fire and able supported by a pre-injury Giles and Croft? Stronger than the side that did so well on the subcontinent ahead of the 2001 Ashes? Stronger than the side that contained Thorpe at his best?

Look at this squad for the tour of Sri Lanka.....

*Nasser Hussain
Mike Atherton
Jason Brown
Andy Caddick
Robert Croft
Ashley Giles
Darren Gough
Graeme Hick
Matthew Hoggard
Paul Nixon
Alec Stewart
Graham Thorpe
Marcus Trescothick
Michael Vaughan
Craig White

Think of the 2001 Ashes squad... add Butcher (456 runs at 50.66) and Ramps (318 runs at 38.18) to the above! The squad ws not poor... and with the fortune England experienced four years later would surely have had the same result.

Rachael your thread is flawed IMHO.
This England side in Australia differs so much from the England side that reclaimed the Ashes in 2005.

First no Simon Jones, the same happened the last time England toured Australia, he was badly injured, and Flintoff could take no part.

Flintoff himself looks jaded, he has had the operation on his knee, he should not have been selected.

Michael Vaughan is missing, he did nothing with the bat, but the side was more disciplined - it's the norm these days to drop catches.

Trescothick has been England's single biggest loss, I dare say England would not have lost at Adelaide - had he been playing.

Giles part of England's Ashes winning side, has not played for a year, his replacement Panesar who has hardly any county experience - let alone being ready for playing Australia in the form they are in.
Rachael I watched every Test match in England in the 70's and the 80's, and IMO none compared with the England side of 2005.

England trouble and I warned of this in 2005 - they did not have strength in depth like Australia, two injuries and England would always struggle.
There was some very dim cricket in the 80's, in a way England in this match is 80's, with players getting caught behind, always a sign of weak batting.
To be fair to England - they have not had the rub of the green, I watched the highlight again not long ago, and with a modicum of luck, England would have had more wickets.
My criticism has been aimed at the selectors - Cook and Joyce should not both have been in the squad with doubts over Trescothick, no blame on either, but they should not have been selected.
key Loye and others with older heads - could have gone, look at the side - it's thin - players don't learn their trade playing Australia in their own backyard.
Strauss I am still hearing should be captain, without Trescothick he has looked like a fish out of water, granted he has had poor decisions from the umpires, but in truth he was spared he was not bating well, the only way that hurt England was in precipitating a collapse.
Again no-one is taking anything away from Australia - but as good as they have played, England have been poor - that is not just the teams fault - look at the names, they never really should a chance once Trescothick had gone.The fact is England should have played with more pride - in all my years off watching cricket, the last day at Adelaide takes some beating for a pathetic gutless team performance, off course the England players are getting used to losing in the ODI's, was bound to have spilled over into the Test side.
Rachael the sides of the 80's in the main were poor, lots of players being caught in the slips, and at gully, a sure sign they could not play the bowling, at times the results were just inevitable, one knew the outcome of the Test before the toss was made.

If you read my post properly, you will note I am not blaming individual players, I was dismayed when the squad was announced, and it seems I had good cause to be.

I think I have more than proved that this England side is a long way from the side led by Vaughan in 2005, i think I was right when I posted when England was on a roll, that there was no depth to the England side, every player was crucial.

We can admire the displays by the Aussies, we can enjoy an innings like Gilly played, but I think there is no enjoyment when one half of a Test match - is just plain bad cricket.

The contest is to uneven.

I hope England salvage some pride and come out with guns blazing, rather than treat us to more pathetic caught behinds.

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Ern

When Gough and Caddick bowled well and were matched by White reverse swinging the ball at 90+ mph England hit a peak in terms of seam bowling that may have been MATCHED since, but which has certainly not been SURPASSED. Gough, Caddick and White (who all fired together) were certainly, if briefly, a match for Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones (who basically NEVER all fired together)... and the batting that did so well for Hussain in the same era was second to none in recent England history.

In truth, Gough, Caddick and the best of Cork took some beating... and the batting of the same era was decent: the sides of that generation just cam eup against awesome opposition... and opponents THAT good can make even good sides look awful.England struggled in 2005 despite being able to field a first-choice Xi for the first 4 Tests and 10 of the first choice Xi for the final test: had it been Simon Jones (rather than McGrath) to suffer misfortune.. no replacement of similar callibre could have been called up and the contest would have gone the same way as every other contest since Gatting's rather empty victory.

It's a sad fact of cricket that strong teams often lose and (rather unjustly) ordinary teams occasionally win: results do NOT tell the full story!

from what i can remember in my life (i am 30) the best england side i can have said to have seen was probably one of the late 80s early 90 with gooch as captain. however, this may be rose-tinted reminiscences and they could well have been crap. i cannot really remember an england side who you didn't worry about a bit. never had 100% trust in them to put an opponent away, whereas the aussies always seemed to be particularly vicious in this respect. (eg. gilchrist yesterday)

my dad delights in telling me how when he was young england used to cut a swathe through foreign opposition (50s and 60s), with players such as trueman, boycott, D'Oliveira, Dexter, Illingworth, Cowdrey, etc. they were #1 and they knew it.

The trouble with your choice Rachael is that Gough,Caddick and White only played together for a very short period.Yes it was successful and worked but did those bowlers ever get anywhere near competing against Australia?

The team of 2005 beat Australia so they in my mind are far superior.

I have always maintained that comparison of teams can only be gauged in relation to their peers. England are now the second or third best in the world, while they were ranked far lower during the 90's. At this stage, i would have to say that the current generation are much stronger than the teams of the 90's.
That said, going by rankings or series scorlines alone is never totally accurate. For example, even if England get done 5-0 this series, the fact is that this England team had a greater chance of winning in Australia, and were closer in talent and ability man for man than the English teams under Atherton or Hussien. Selection, form and luck has gone against them though.

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The thought police are everywhere..............

This English(Commonwealth) team is the best touring team in Australia for decades.
At the start of this series I would have put the odds of them winning or drawing the series at 40 percent.
Previous teams would at best be a 10/20 precent chance.

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" You don't want the truth,you can't handle the truth."

White found it hard to keep his place, he was in the same team as Flintoff - and much was expected, but for some reason he lost his pace, and became ineffective.

England's batting at that time was very ordinary, they had stars but was never good enough to win matches, you say they played against "awesome opposition" - well they failed to rise to their levels, that made them second rate IMO.

Caddick could be as devastating as anyone, but look at his career - he never really fired in the first innings, like he did in the second otherwise he would have been in the class of walsh.

This is disingenuous, 4 years ago when England toured Australia - England lost Simon Jones who was yound fit and fast, and could bat, also England lost Flintoff also injured, Australia in 2005 only lost McGrath, who was in any case was replaced by a younger fitter Lee who bowled well, Harmison also got 5 wickets at Lords.

I don't know what you mean over Gattings "empty victory"



Rachael - in 2005 England were on a roll, no team would have stopped them, their Ashes win was deserved, and could have won by more only for this strange lack of a killer instinct at the death.

They was not crap - these England teams of the 80's could have got better results had they had more self belief, England as a nation has no self belief - look at Tennis Henman and 'co' go to pieces against opposition below their rankings

I think Golf is an exception, and Equestrian sports.

60 million people live in the UK - yet England can't find 12 cricketers, one Tennis player, more than a handful of decent athletes .

Exactly - had you been wrong players like Ramprakash and Hick would have flourished, Tuffers and Endmunds would have been more consistent.

No matter who was batting it seemed inevitable they would be out soon.

Yes well even they failed when the they met their match in 2005, they could not come to terms with reverse swing, even though it was not new - Imran Khan tormented English batsmen with it - years ago.



I remember some of these players - Tom Graveny batting with D'Oliveira was pure entertainment, of course these players did not get injured the same - there was no ODI's, there was a rest day on a Sunday during Tests, they looked better because they were fresh.

Boycott was class - he ducked out of the worst of the faster bowling though IMO, on his return at Trent Bridge it must have been a nightmare, he ran out Derek Randell the local hero, but he buckled down to make his 100. I think he thought he had to make up for his mistake.

Illingworth was a bit ordinary if my memory serves me right, he did not make that many big scores, his bowling was an a par IMO with such as Dusty Miller, but as a captain he was a Douglas Jardine, and also a bit like Gatting - England through and though and was ruthless in his quest for success.

Rachael had a point - it's a thin line between that trio, and Flintoff Jones and Harmison, but the batting did not match the bowling.

Quite right greg, but England had a flaw, if one got injured there was no off the peg replacements.



I ad a bad feeling when I saw the players drunk on their victory parade, Flintoff in particular looked a mess, they thought it would be a piece of cake beating Pakistan after beating Australia, but underestimating them was IMO the start of the rot.



The team of 2005 was unique, but it's gone to the history books, it's start again time.

Good points Seamer as bad as this side has done, with a bit more luck, and with a fully fit Trescothick - Atherton never had a team to match.

Australia have a secret - and that is they have depth, if Mcgrath finished tomorrow, players would be queuing up to replace him.

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Ern