Goddard might be a stretch, certainly a better player than Hall, but probably not a better bowler...vastly underrated player and one of the most economical bowlers in the history of the game.

Greatest ever allrounder is Betty Wilson, I was reading a article about here on cricinfo. amazing

If you get a chance read it, it's called Lady Don

Sobers batsman who bowled a little bit
Botham bowler who batted a bit

There has never been an allrounder who was a gun batsman and gun bowler in male test standards.

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Bill Ponsford - The only one who could play in Bradman’s company and make it a duet.

I agree that Sobers is a great all rounder, quite possibly the best ever but Kallis has the ability to challenge that, even though the latter gets fewer opportunities with the ball. Kallis' position in current SA team as a batsman is far more valuable than Sobers' was in his time because more often than not the burly South African has to try and get them out of a sticky situation. Sobers on the other hand, had Weekes, Walcott & Worrell in the earlier part of his career and later Kanhai, Butcher & Lloyd. Therefore, he could afford to take a more attacking approach to his batting, which he did with gusto.

Likewise, there was a difference in the needs of the 2 teams as far as the bowling services of these two players are concerned. Sobers initially bowled in a team where spinners like Ramadhin & Valentine were seen as the main strike bowlers and so Sobers' pace bowling was, in fact, an important requirement for the team. Roy Gilchrist was way too tempermental and erratic to be relied upon and until Hall came along, forcing Sobers to remain as one of the main pace bowlers in the team. Even later on, Griffith was in and out of the team with injuries and so Sobers was effectively one of the opening bowlers.

South Africa have seldom needed to depend heavily on Kallis' bowling throughout his career and so despite his ability as a bowler, he is seriously underbowled. His recent bowling figures show that he does a good enough job when given the ball, but never has it long enough to make a significant impact. Despite all that Kallis still has a better strike rate than Sobers and while I agree that the SR is not eveything, one cannot dismiss the figures out of hand.

I guess you and I just have different ideas of what constitutes an alrounder. You seem to look at it as statistical, where a player has to do both things at a similarly high standard (which is a pefectly valid argument-stop me if I'm wrong), but I tend to look at it in terms of functions being fulfilled. Sobers, on average, bowled 232 balls per game (91.9 * 2.53). That's 38 overs per match, or 19 overs per innings. To me, that makes him an allrounder, not just a part-timer as you seem to be suggesting. Batting just happened to be his strongest suit.

Regarding the other bowlers in the West Indian attack, you have a point about Charlie Griffith, but not about Lance Gibbs. You call 3.9 wpm at 29 an average peformance, but historically those sorts of figures are very impressive for a finger spinner. It's only a very short handful- Underwood, Laker, and Tayfield- that manage an average in the low-to-mid-twenties, and Underwood's 3.45 wpm is way below Gibbs' 3.9. Other finger-spinning greats (and it's not just me calling them that) with similar figures include Bishen Bedi, Errapalli Prassanna and Ashley Mallet. So I don't really see how you can call Gibbs' performances "average."

Please read my post again and you will see that this is more or less what I am saying as well. Sobers bowled so many overs during his career because his team needed him to do so....... far more than what South Africa ever needed (or will need) Kallis to bowl. But the difference in bowling needs is not a reflection of either the individual or comparitive bowling skills of the two men; rather, it reflects the collective available bowling talent of the rest of their teams. In other words, just because Sobers' role as a bowler in the WI teams that he played was more siginificant than Kallis' position with the ball in his SA teams, the former cannot be automatically judged as the "better all rounder" (or even the better bowler) because that is the wrong yardstick to compare. Neither Sobers nor Kallis can influence the make up or the performance of the rest of their teams and so that line of judgement will be seriously flawed.

On the other hand, a better yardstick would be the quality of opposition that the two men...and their teams....faced. England were a better team than they are now in Sobers' era, whereas the current Australian team has a definite edge over their then predecessors. But the old India, Pakistan and New Zealand teams were far weaker than their present counterparts and Sri Lankan Test team did not exist back then. Therefore in a sense, Kallis faced & is facing tougher overall opposition - including the likes of Warne, McGrath, Murali, Kumble etc.

Another point; just as Sobers' bowling was more important to the West Indian team than perhaps he, as a primary batsman, would have preferred himself, Kallis' batting is equally central to the South African team. Therefore, it is not as straightforward as one might think.

One think I'll admit (though its importance in the outcome of a match is questionable) is that Sobers had flair; the only thing that Kallis knows about flair is how to spell it.

Well, this was my point, I thought, was that Sobers was overbowled...markedly overbowled, due to the poor quality of the bowling attack, in relative terms - I stand by that and do not think Lance Gibbs' figures are particulary impressive for a man who played 80 Tests or so. Again, the longevity, providing solid return over a long period of time, is particulary worthy of note, but that production is not astounding at all, it is the least that should be expected of a historically significant player.

Just to expand on that - Sobers being overbowled allowed his wickets per match to be surprisingly high for an average of 34.03 (over 2.5) and make this even a debate - this would not be a debate if Sobers was bowled at a more appropriate clip (which I accept may not have been possible in this team, but he should not be REWARDED for that)