It depends on what you understand by "guile". I interpret as an intelligent ability to understand the batsmen's weaknesses and try to fool them with your variations of pace, trajectory and spin. Despite his limitations, I agree that Giles had plenty of that and I have seen him get some good wickets with it (for example, the manner in which he drew Sehwag into a false stroke & bowled him in the 2002 Natwest Final). Vettori has more talent and guile than Giles; Panesar is undoubtedly talented as a spinner, but so far he strikes me more as an instinctive bowler in the Harbhajan Singh mould than a thinking one. Look at the Indian; a few years ago, he used to bamboozle international batsmen and I still recall Gower and other commentators swearing blind to a golden future. He is still a good bowler, but there are distinct sign that oppositin batsmen have learned to read the signals correctly. I feel that the same thing might happen to Panesar over passing years; time will tell.

Please dont put him in the harbajhan mould, now there is an overhyped spinner! He has become predictable as his "doosra" has more arm flex than muralis .

In the context of a spinner I understand "guile" to be the same thing as you. IMO Giles may have the ability to understand a batsmans weaknesses but I dont think he has the natural skills to be able to decieve a batsman with pace or flight. I could quite easily see Monty decieving batsman through the air and he already varies his pace quite well.

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Mark.

[quote]And why not? While I don't rate Harbhajan Singh all that highly, he has dismissed many top international batsmen in the last 5 or 6 years, though not with the consistency that would have made him a great bowler. The problem was that he was overrated at the time; if you go back and look at the sports news clippings of the time, you may notice some familiar phrases alarmingly similar to the ones being used now with MP. Panesar is only starting out on his international career and following some success is enjoying the adulation that comes with it. HS was also in that position during the early stages of his career.

I would have thought that would be bread & butter of any international spinner; that's how they ply their trade...not by simply bowling 'slowly'. Even a part-time spinner like Jayasuriya can sometimes show variations of flight, pace and spin to fool top batsmen and so those skills alone will not automatically put Panesar in the top bracket. I am not saying that he is not a good bowler - he is - but certainly not anything special like his current following might suggest. He could achieve long term success in international cricket, but if you expect Panesar to be a Warne or Muralitharan, you can forget it.

He could make it big time with his temperment, I agree it's far to early to say one way or the other.

He won't make a Warne or a Murali, because for one reason he is not that type of bowler, he could however make a name for himself like Bishan Bedi, or D Underwood did - and be know as "Panesar".

To pie-chucker when I said Giles had more guile than Panesar, I meant that Giles when fit can bowl to any occasion.

On the last but one tour of India - Giles helped England from suffering more humiliation by bowling an imaculate line of leg stump, negative bowling maybe, but the line had to be right he would have got carted on the leg side.

Being able to bowl like that requires guile, the type of which only experience will bring.

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Ern

Awww Racheal did you have to mod Mr T, such delightfully concise, insiteful and articulate arguments.

The mere lack of any factual backing for what he was saying isn't surely sufficient reason to mod him out is it?

BTW has anyone noticed that when you reply to a "mod'ed" post you get the start of it attached to the reply?