I don't know Olly the ECB have a history of some very dumb moves.... I am sure I can catalogue a few bigger ones..

1. Morgan agreeing to tour Zimbabwe
2. The Warm match schedule before the Ashes
3. Organising a parade and a visit to see the Queen the day after an Ashes victory
4. Not renewing Troy Cooley's contract
5. Letting SKY get the TV rights

Oh so many.... I could go on, but I won't

Yes ff I take your point - how honest I am not sure, if he feels this way, then why did he go drinking?.

I remember the days pre 2004 when he got stick - got fat, but he did do something about it, he was professional and got himself into shape.

But the fact remains is Flintoffs make up, I doubt very much if he (like Botham) is capable of much change.

Talking again about being professional - after his (first op) he devised his own fitness programme which included 'fell running', he did this without the help of coaches.

England should know what Flintoff is like, they should also ff realise their own lack of professionalism when they played Flintoff injured in 2004 - just to save the England team further embarrassment against the West Indies in he ODI's following the Tests.

The England management did not show professionalism when they overbowled Flintoff time and time again, to the point probably were he may never be 100% fit again.

I do understand that Flintoff is not above the england team - I just think the punishment should fit the crime, I also think it should be taken into account the length of time these guys are on tour - as long near enough as a total soccer season - that matters and should be taken into consideration.

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Ern

Ern,

I agree, but I would give anything to be in his position. If I was even half as good as he is, I would be happy. These guys do spend a long time away, but they do get time off, but it was the timing that was incredible, he would have had a day to recover and then he would be playing again. If he had gone out the night of the Canada game, he could have had 5 days to recover. This is why it was so bad, it was because he choose the wrong night to go out all night, that was stupid, and immature.

Why did he get punished three times - we have talked about this before - but as you don't seem to get it, so I will repeat

1. He is a senior member of the team - and as such should no better
2. Other younger players went with him - they need to be shown that nobody is bigger than the team
3. He has been warned before - he clearly hadn't understood them

That is why his punishment was three fold, and that was why it was correct, and that is probably why, in his heat of hearts, he knows it was.

Well a quick one on this - I would not have been as annoyed had the goverment ploughed the one Billion GBP it will raise into green projects, not just swelling Brown coffers, I dread to think where the cash raised will be spent.
An international agreement would have been better, not just a British statement.

Back on topic.
I never said that Flintoff had not drunk to much - just that he came from the club earlier than the others, the reason I understood at the time was that he was hot - and went out on a pedalo, I don't see this has changed, it is obvious that whatever he still had to much to drink.

My complaint was (and still is) - that he was singled out for IMO to much punishment, the Fletcher and Vaughan through the book at Flintoff.

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Ern

Do we know what/how serious Flintoff's alleged indiscretions were in Australia ?

No, this is the extraordinary thing about all of this. Nobody seems to know anything about the "Ashes indiscretions" except the touring management, Vaughan and Nasser Hussain.

Maybe a few other chaps too, but I haven't kept myself abreast of all the trash press.

But from that point of view it seems to me that Flintoff did a pretty good job of not being noticed by tourists and the media in Australia, so its just a bit sad that he so clearly cocked up here in the club and on the pedalo.

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Red-it, Red-it, Read it and wept

But if, as we understand it, there were other indiscretions in Australia (there have been rumours about him drinking in a pub in Perth till the early hours, after losing the third Test) and he had been warned, maybe this was being singled out but the natural conclusion after a series of ignored warnings.

Ern - quick question - if Flintoff was in your team - and he had been warned on a number of occasions, which you had managed to keep from getting into the public domain (and if you feel that Vaughan and Fletcher were gunning for him, this surely would have happened) then he gets himself on the front cover of a national newspaper just hours before a crucial game - how would you have punished him?

As I understand it, Freddie incurred Woolmer's wrath in Australia for a lot of late nights and regular binge drinking: I don't know of any "incidents"... the issue was more one of professionalism.

Boycott has a piece on this in today's Torygraph... suggesting the lack of professionalism set in after the 2005 Ashes and arguing that Flintoff's downturn as a batsman is a direct consequence: he notes that laddishness and bowling well are not incompatible as bowling is essentially physical... but that the cumulative effect of binge drinking and late nights show up in the discipline which revolves around concentration.

Rachael,

It would make complete sense. Maybe this is the kick up the **** Flintoff needs to get him back to his best!!

You said the word "rumours" - the ECB should have confirmed one way or another if there was any truth in the rumours, if they covered up for Flintoff or any other player - then they can't go back and punish a player in retrospect.
If the rumours are true, then the selectors/ECB should have given him a public fine, rather than let matters get out of hand like they seem to have done.


It is only rumours that Flintoff has received warnings on a number of occasions.
Well Flintoff is a threat to Vaughan (sorry was), but I remember how ruthless Vaughan and Fletcher can be with the way they treated Read when they replaced him with G O Jones in the West Indies in 2004 - how can you trust such people.
I would have had no problem with him being suspended - had Lewis - Anderton - Plunkett - Bell - Shine and others been suspended also.

You do not fine a man - strip him of the vice captaincy - suspend him for a match, and yet only fine the others.

Taking into account that this was Flintoff's first proven offence, the punishment was way OTT.

If Flintoff has done this before - then the ECB/Vaughan/Fletcher should have nipped this behaviour in the bud, in fact by covering up for him - they have let him down.

To answer your pacific question - I would have fined him, and made him make a public apology, with a public warning as to his future conduct - this SHOULD have been done in Australia, if the 'rumours' are true, had they done so, this episode may well never have happened.

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Ern