Thanks for the insight Ninjaman - i learn a lot for members here at WAT. Simmo is a legend, and first class Aussie, and i assumed he could stand proud of who he is. But of course, i would have to be in his shoes to get a true understanding of what it is like to be an Aussie of West Indian heritage. Who knows, in my next life, i may well be reborn as a black man or woman.

The whole issue of racism is something i have thought long and hard on. I am convinced that we are all born "colour blind" and only develop a racial awareness as we get older. For example, my 4yo daughter's best friend at kindy is a little Singhalese or Indian girl, i'm not sure of which. Now i neither encourage nor discourage this friendship, but i do take a private interest in how it goes - as a sort of social experiment if you will. If they drift apart, will it be because they have developed an inate racial awareness with no outside influence, or will it it happen because of intangible subtle reasons such as literature they read or watching racially divisive movies such as those produced by Disney, or will peer group pressure come into play with someone coming up to her and saying "Why are you hanging out with an Indian?"

Or has/will Australian society evolve to a point where skin colour makes no difference? Or is that evolution an impossible one to achieve?

In the end, i agree with other members here that racial awareness is not unnecessarily bad providing it is of a benign nature

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If you are willing to believe that racism in England stems purely from "weak minded idiots that read the likes of the Daily Mail, and the Daily Express" then that's your prerogative OF. I tend to believe that the root causes stem from issues that lie far deeper.

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Seamer this is pure nonsence - rules don't permit my real reaction.

This so called poor education service:::

Well my daughter had two degees, a post graduate degree in Maths, and my son had a degree in engineering - both are in well paid jobs.(teacher and engineer), and they are not unique, and all from a poor education system - we have a small don't want to work culture in the UK - this is not the norm.

The health service - yes as a regular user of this service I know just a lot about it, I am treated by 3 consulants one of which is a Pakistani, Jamacan and a Syrian - the nurseing staff is divided between White and other people, so no discrimination there.
If a condition is serious - you are seen the same day, if not then you go an a waiting list - the GP's in the UK are second to none, with a high proportion of Dr's coming from Asia, and you will be seen same day if it's urgent, if not within days.

The only real joke in the NHS is finding a dentist that will take NHS patients, which annoys me having paid my taxes and NI contributions.


In real life there is little racial tension, there is however annoyance that the UK seems to be taking more that's it's fair share of East European imigrants.

You are right Seamer the UK has sixty million peoples crammed into a tiny land mass, if this expands much further - homes will have to be built on(not by) the sea.

Get a grip Seamer.

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Ern

You may be right on that - certainly it's not an area where I have tried any sort of research. I have lived in the UK for two-thirds of my life, however, and I've spent a lot of time in Germany researching some of the horrors of life there between the wars, during the second world war and more recently. There is nothing at all in common between the UK in 2007 and Germany in 1933, and the picture you paint of the UK is not one that I (or many other people) would recognise.

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Money won't buy you friends. But it gets you a better class of enemy.
Spike Milligan

Well if it such nonsense Ernest, then explain why it is such nonsense, rather than giving vague anecdotes referring to your kids. And you should be able to do so within the "rules" - if i can, then you should be able to as well.

Rather than acecdotes, i will offer you some statistical facts. These stats are from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, and while a couple of years old (i can't find any more recent ones ATM) they are perfectly relevant.

12.5 million English in 2001-02, were living in homes with incomes below the poverty line - 22% of the population were officially living in poverty

This including 3.8 million children Now use your imagination for a sec, and picture 3.8 million poverty stricken kids lined up in a row - that line would stretch way over the horizon.

2.2 million pensioners and 6.6 million working-age adults were also living in poverty.

Now child poverty is a crime, no matter which which country. But for the 4th richest country in the world....... Sorry, but that makes me angry

Now we come to the wealth distribution (from the National Statistics Office and Inland Revenue 2003)

The richest 5 percent owned 43 percent of the wealth.

The poorest 50 percent owned just 6 percent.

The top 2.4m households owned assets worth around £1,300b

The bottom 12m owned assets of around £150m

Now we return to racism. Does malignant, violent racism stem from middle and upper classes, or from the lower poor classes? The latter i think we can all agree. Malign racism is a direct result of poverty and this is the point i was making. Lift these people out of poverty and the problem will begin to ease.

Now why are they in poverty? I have already heard one simplistic excuse in this thread "we have a small don't want to work culture in the UK" I'll fire you another " They should stop spending all their money on drugs and alchohol"

No, the problem lies in the distribution of wealth, as the above stats clearly prove.

Time to get your head out of the clouds and see the true reality Ern

Hmmmm. I wonder if a neutral observer would think what i say is "baloney" Or who is the one that needs to "get a grip" And, no i think about an issue, look at the facts and draw my own conclusions. Newspapers are for people that are unable/unwilling to think for themselves IMO

Now this problem is not confined to England, the same problem exists in all western nations, including Australia, and in particular the U.S. I only am bringing up the state of affairs in England, after hearing a simplistic, completely incorrect explanation of why racism is a problem in England

Look at the above stats, then go back to my original post, then search your feelings and you will find that there is more truth to what i say than you are perhaps willing to admit.

Don't just accept the system your government creates. Question it, criticize it - it is our democratic right, nay duty, to do it. The moment you stop, you lose it

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The notion of "poverty" used for these stats is pretty much meaningless (and would certainly not be cause for huge sympathy amongst those who struggle to get through their day to day lives in much of the rest of the world). Many may be in situations that are far from easy... but almost all have the option of access to shelter (even if they do not take it)... almost all could afford to feed themselves very well indeed... and almost all have access to a level of healthcare provision that exceeds that typically selected by even fairly well-to-do folk in (amongst other places) America.

Don't get me wrong: some folk do have VERY tough lives over here... and many do see themselves as trapped in circumstances that offer them few prospects... and the combination drug-driven crime and anti-social behaviour blight too many lives.. but this country doesn't really have a "poverty" problem - the bigger issue is, if anything, the number of dysfunctional families whose responses to the challenges they face leave them leading far tougher lives than they need to (which is what really impacts on child-welfare).

ps. I'd not fret too much about schools and medical care over here: communities basically get the schools they deserve (as any school with a decent voluntary body of governors and decent involvement from parents and the community will almost invariably be a success).. and the problems with the healthcare system are primarilly of swallowing (and wasting) excessive amounts of the GDP rather than of quality of provision.

I can't put it better than Rachael did: your reference, Seamer, was originally to "abject poverty". That, by any measure, is baloney. We don't have it in England. Poverty exists, of course, using the word in the somewhat loose and relative sense which it has adopted in the rich western world; certainly there are disparities of wealth which are high-ish - but take a look at the figures for Russia, for example, and you may find the disparity even more marked there with a very small handful of super-rich and a very large body of the population at or below the average wealth levels.

Your language and commentary in your first post on the subject, while intended to make some valid points, are simply so extreme as to kill the argument stone dead. Britain is nowhere near the worst example of disparity in the world today, and to compare it with Germany in 1933 is just patent nonsense.

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Money won't buy you friends. But it gets you a better class of enemy.
Spike Milligan

Anyone who cannot afford to buy a plasma or LCD TV of at least 42" is considered to be officially "poor" in the UK. So maybe Seamer has a point.

It's a conundrum of modern life, get 3 hoons together yelling racial abuse at someone then seperate them and talk to them individualy and often 1 is strongly racist and loud, 1 is indifferent and 1 is not racist at all and only joined in to be part of the group.
Yet go to a social situation like a party and talk to people who are normally overtly non-racist and frown upon open hoon racism as described above and often the greater percentage of them have stronger racist veiws than 2 of the 3 hoons I mentioned in the first sentence.

Well I would dispute such a high figure - ok some people work for the minimum wage of arround £6 an hour, but Seamer in the Uk we have a generous TAX CREDIT system that tops peoples incomes to to a reasonable level.

Nope not true -- pensioners besides there state or private pensions recieve if entitled PENSION CREDIT, and ATTENDACE ALLOWANCE, pluss HOUSING and LOCAL TAX benefits, and the same goes for working adults - if their wage is of poverty levels thay get WORKING TAX CREDITS, and their WIVES or PARTNERS claim CHILD TAX CREDITS, so much for wide spead poverty - these are facts - not stats.

True to a point, but due to unprecidented house price rises, most home owners are able to provide a decent legacy for their chldren.

Of course there are the super rich, but I am not subscibing to the politics of envy - like we saw with left wing labour governments in the 60's

Such as Richard Branson has made his fortune with wise investments and risk taking, and has brough jobs and prosperity to people who otherwise would have had no jobs.

Why would taking people out of poverty stop racism?, there is not that much of a problem in any case.
The BNP has faded, the National Front has faded, there are no real organised racist parties left in the UK.

No you could take every cent of the rich folks, and share it out amoungst what you would call poor folks, but in the long run it would make no difference at all - except to seee the errosion of millions of jobs, as investors fled the UK.

OH and I don't own a 42 inch Plasma or LCD Nostromo, a mear 32 inch, so I must be poor.

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Ern