Bit of a debate going on about Warne, MacGill and even Rashid, on another thread, but it has opened up an interesting question. Has Warne damaged or enhanced the art of leg spin?

The case for Warne enhancing it, is that by the way he bowled, the wickets he took and the entertainment he brought to the game he has left a legacy that means that a dying art (in the face of four tall fast bowlers) has been resurrected, and a place in any team will be found for a genuine leg spinner.

The case against, Warne was too good, and the result is that players like MacGill, who does not have the same control, but in any other era would have been a great player, is judged harshly in comparison. Warne also made Leg spin seen as so vital that players like Schofield or Salisbury got thrust into International cricket, which they were not good enough to play. Rashid could be promoted too early, just because he is a wrist spinner.

Good points FF. I think Warne has enhanced it personally, because he made spin bowling "cool" to a lot of cricketing young 'uns around the world who before would rather bowl seam because spin bowling was "boring".

Another point: Is it Warne's fault that he was "too good"? No. He had the talent, made himself better than a normal leg spinner. It's OUR fault for thinking every leggie is a match winner.

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I have to stick up for Ian Salisbury here. It's easy to forget 15 years on what a good young player he was when he made his test debut (effectively pre Warne back in 92) and like so many he was treated appallingly by the incompetent England management in the 90's who were utterly clueless about how to handle a promising wrist spinner. He was unlike Schofield picked purely on merit as his performances for Sussex that season were outstanding (from memory he was the second leading wicket taker behind Courtney Walsh that year) following on from a successful A tour and solid performances the previous couple of seasons. Then came a decade of being dropped, randomly recalled before being dropped after failing to perform miracles in one off tests and without the security of an extended run of games the confidence (something that is directly linked to control) completely dissapeared. Lack of talent was never the problem with Salisbury unlike Schofield who was I agree completely was the desperate "we need a wrist spinner if we are going to match Australia" pick.

Warne was one of the first to re-introduce everyone's confidence in top class spin bowling as a genuine attack weapon. The excessive reliance on pace in the 70s and 80s had made cricket a bit one-dimensional. Now good spinners world over are being given chances in all forms of the game and even if only a few of them make a big impression, it is still a good trend.

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Hardly. In ODIs, Imran was using Qadir as an attacking option long before that. Same for Mushtaq after Qadir, eg in the 1992 World Cup. Even Saqlain had far more success as an attacking ODI bowler for the initial few years than Warne.

And as for Tests, leg-spinners were always considered "attack weapons", that wasn't really an issue. Warne, to his credit, changed the paradigm completely by being an attacking option that could also be used to dry up the scoring options and put pressure on the batting side even in very good batting conditions.

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I've absolutely no doubt, whatsoever, that Warne has been better for modern cricket than almost any other player of my lifetime... but the fact that HE was able to build pressure through exceptional control doesn't realy change anything for any other side - most sides are still stuck with the problem that any lesser wrist spinner is likely to need a lot more runs on the board than would be needed with a very good finger-spinner in the slow-bowling role.

Even Qadir went at over 4 an over: OK if you bat the opposition out of the game... but potentially match losing if you don't!

Exactly - Warne could do things that the greats of old could only do on uncovered wickets, Underwood Laker and others where great in their time, but Warne has bolwed teams out on any type of wicket.

Warne must be the greatest legspin/fingerspin talant ever - and that includes Murali, who although he has got the wickets - never seemed to put sides under pressure the same as Warne did.

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Ern

That may be.... but the question was about whether this has been nothing but good for the game... and even the most enthusiastic follower of Warne has to accept engssmoothcriminal's observation that Schofield 'was the desperate "we need a wrist spinner if we are going to match Australia" pick'... and that expectations of wrist spin have changed: few would have been unduly concerned by Rashid's economy rate in the pre-Warne era... as leg-spinners were EXPECTED to go for runs... but since Warne we DO find some folk expecting a leg-spinner to match a decent finger-spinner in terms of economy rate.

This is the point of the debate. This is not about - "was Warne any good" - that is a pointless question (as the answer is obvious). The question that this thread is about is - because Warne was so good, has this lead to greater expectation upon leg spinners that follow him, and is this a good thing?

The fact is that most leg spinners work best with runs on the board (I know that from personal experince, if my team did not rack up the runs, I knew that my chances of getting a decent bowl was limited - which was why I ended up an off spinner!!) and Warne was unique in the sense that he bowled a full toss or a long hope maybe once or twice in a spell, while most good leg spinners will get their length wrong at least once an over. The amazing thing with Warne is that he was so accurate, but spun the ball massively.

The result is that someone like Rashid will arrive with massive expectations - (is he the English Warne?) and if he fails to find his length, or sacrifices spin for accuracy (which most leg break bowlers have to do) then he will quickly get panned.