Interesting stats Ninj of course you have to reverse the NZ batting line up for those stats to count, batsmen 6,7 and 8 (Oram, McCullum, Vettori) are normally five times harder to dismiss than the black caps top order.

This of course skews the results some what.

Having just read the various arguments here I've got to swerve towards backing Warne here as the greater bowler.

Excellent stats Ninjaman. How did you work those out?

Well SBM, it is the 8-11 stats that would be the issue here surely? 1-7 is a much of a muchness really, and these stats do not really add much to the Murali side of things

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I've no quibble with the stats... though I do think it would be interesting to see the proportions for Kumble and MacGill: I've long suspected that extreme turn on even a pretty ordinary delivery (the MacGill special) might clean up more tailenders than such a delivery might deserve... and would be intrigued to see how Kumble has fared (though he must be near unreadable to most tail-enders).

The other stat that might be interesting is 1st innings wickets and 2nd innings wickets: in some ways, Warne's figures should be stronger than Murali's for the former (when the seamers really ought to be doing the work) with Murali looking stronger on day 4/5 pitches.

The difficulty with that comparison is the bowling colleagues: Murali had Vaas and Warne had McGrath.. but Mcgrath generally had better support seamers alongside him.

I don't think i have commented on that delivery yet, and i must say Rachel that i totally agree with you. I watched it 5 times and could not for the life of me see any drift. He ripped it, it hit a footmark, and spun. I'm a left hander to, and i must say that i would have been ashamed to be bowled by that ball. Vandough had a brain freeze.

I want to find out from Ninjaman how he worked out those stats too, because i want to see the proportions for Brett Lee. Ponting always lets Lee finish off the tail, and i must say that Lee is not particularly good at it yet eventually gets the wickets.

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Kumble

27.4% of wickets in batting position 1-3
39.9% of wickets in batting position 4-7
32.7% of wickets in batting position 8-11

MacGill

20.8% of wickets in batting position 1-3
40.6% of wickets in batting position 4-7
38.6% of wickets in batting position 8-11

Vettori

27.6% of wickets in batting position 1-3
37.9% of wickets in batting position 4-7
34.5% of wickets in batting position 8-11

Panesar

26.0% of wickets in batting position 1-3
39.7% of wickets in batting position 4-7
34.2% of wickets in batting position 8-11

Harbhajan

23.1% of wickets in batting position 1-3
38.2% of wickets in batting position 4-7
38.7% of wickets in batting position 8-11

I worked out the stats by going through each and everyone of the scorecards that these guys played in....... then realised you can get that information from:

www.howstat.com

What a waste of time!!

Well that was fantastic research and thanks. Thanks for the heads up on howstat too - will come in handy for a stats lover like me

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Yep,

Good job Ninj.

I take your point about 1-7 seam and in Warne's defence with McGrath opening ther will have been plenty of times when the top order would have been and gone before the spinner got on

Warne's mostly played in a 4 man attack... meaning he's generally been expected to bowl in every session of a game. He's had enough time at top order batsmen: not even McGrath and Gillespie at their best could routinely get rid of the top order wickets THAT quickly!

McGrath

40.0% of wickets in batting position 1-3
34.8% of wickets in batting position 4-7
25.2% of wickets in batting position 8-11

Lee

37.1% of wickets in batting position 1-3
35.1% of wickets in batting position 4-7
27.8% of wickets in batting position 8-11

Gillespie

37.5% of wickets in batting position 1-3
38.6% of wickets in batting position 4-7
23.9% of wickets in batting position 8-11