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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:50 AM in reply to flanflinger's post starting "Moss, Think you will find that he was..."
Notts Exile Notts Exile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flanflinger View Post
In my mind, Harmison is still the best bowler we have, and to leave him out and gamble with Broad, would be folly IMO.
He hasn't shown it for far too long. Too many excuses are used with Harmison. I'm sure that they'll be used again and again if he fails to perform here.

For me, Hoggard is far more likely to prove to be our best bowler and has done so on more occasions than Harmison.

One thing I have found odd is that in Australia the Sri Lankans struggled against Lee but not Clark and Johnson. In the ODI Series against England they struggled against Sidebottom hugely. That suggests to me that when the conditions suit swing and bowlers who get the ball to move around the Sri Lankans will struggle. Harmison won't find the conditions to suit him which is why many of the so-called experts are saying he won't play.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 12:04 PM in reply to Notts Exile's post starting "He hasn't shown it for far too long. ..."
Rachael Rachael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
Harmison won't find the conditions to suit him which is why many of the so-called experts are saying he won't play.
Someone on this board once argued that Ambrose was the best helpful-pitch bowler he'd ever seen: this presumably referred to his ability to land the ball on the seam and get steepling bounce off a full length on any but the flattest pitches. The best of Harmison has been seen in exactly those conditions... and it has to be said that on less helpful pitches, Harmison has never adapted anything like as well as Ambrose did: he's tended to bowl shorter and be exposed as one-dimensional.

Hoggard and Sidebottom may not have the same natural advantages for fast, bouncy tracks... but they've shown an ability to adapt that Harmison has never shown: Hoggard's record in INdia is excellent... and his performance on the flat wicket at Adelaide in the last Ashes series was outstanding.... and Sidebottom's performance in the recent ODI series showed that he is also a much more accomplished bowler than Harmison.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 12:20 PM in reply to Rachael's post starting "Someone on this board once argued that..."
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This is the possible mix, and these are the problems IMO

Three Seamers

Hoggard, Sidebottom and Anderson - too predictable and too one paced
Hoggard, Sidebottom and Broad - less predictability but still a gamble on a débutante
Hoggard, Sidebottom and Harmison - again less predictability, but you at least have some pace there to get the batsmen on their toes

Two Seamers (keep in mind that it would mean Swann is playing and on début)

Hoggard and Sidebottom/Anderson - no variation at all apart from angle with the left hander - but is that enough?
Hoggard/Sidebottom and Broad - really a massive experince problem, particularly of Hoggard is the man to lose out
Hoggard/Sidebottom and Harmison - some variation there, and if Hoggard is the man, then 400+ Test wickets worth of experince can't be knocked

For me the choice isn't Sidebottom or Harmison, it is Harmison or Broad. For me 200+ wickets at 30, is a much better bet than a guy on début!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Harmison
There's still enough time in the nets to prove yourself - whether you're Stuart Broad, who hasn't played a Test, or if you're Stephen Harmison, and you've played 55 Tests with 200 wickets behind you

Last edited by flanflinger : 23-11-2007 at 12:34 PM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 12:40 PM in reply to flanflinger's post starting "This is the possible mix, and these are..."
Rachael Rachael is offline
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A report in one paper the other day suggested that Sidebottom, aside from being a left-armer, could be counted on to extract a lot more bounce than Hoggard: he was apparently bowling at a lively enough pace in the ODI series and was basically doing what you want of Harmison.

Broad is also 6' 5" tall and has a high action... so if the management want height and Harmison is NOT bowling well in the next warm up... he might still enter the reckoning.

As I see it, the play off comes down to Swann, Harmison and Broad... with Anderson only coming in if Hoggard or Sidebottom are injured or if he's able to convince the management that he's the closest thing they've got to a reverse swing specialist.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 12:53 PM in reply to Rachael's post starting "A report in one paper the other day..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael View Post
A report in one paper the other day suggested that Sidebottom, aside from being a left-armer, could be counted on to extract a lot more bounce than Hoggard: he was apparently bowling at a lively enough pace in the ODI series and was basically doing what you want of Harmison.
I have bolded the stuff that I have problems with

1. What Report? By who, were they there?
2. Could is not good enough, there is no point after the end of the test saying "well he could have bowled liked that, but he didn't"
3. Apparently, it isn't definitely, it isn't even possibly!! I don't trust anything where someone is "apparently" able to do something

If you want a tall quick fast bowler, then you choose Harmison or Broad, you don't hope that someone else can do that role.

Rachael, I am also very surprised that you are championing the cause for Sidebottom based on him changing fudamentally what he is good at, and what you admire him for!!

Last edited by flanflinger : 23-11-2007 at 01:09 PM.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 01:20 PM in reply to flanflinger's post starting "I have bolded the stuff that I have..."
Rachael Rachael is offline
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Can't locate the article I was thinking of... and can't even recall what newspaper it was in... but I did just dig this up....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scyld Berry
No England one-day bowler has bowled more effectively overseas, not even Andrew Flintoff, than Sidebottom on his first tour. He took 12 wickets in the five internationals last month and was man of the series. Principally he subdued the home side's innings-launcher Sanath Jayasuriya: in the last four one-dayers Sidebottom bowled 35 balls at Jayasuriya and conceded seven runs, dismissing him twice [...]

If Sidebottom can produce something similar in the Test series, he will take England a long way towards winning. Diffident or not, he has become England's premier swing bowler, ahead of James Anderson and Matthew Hoggard. He has yet to exhibit a full range of old-ball tricks, although he has been working on reverse-swing from round the wicket, but as a new-ball bowler he has risen in the six months since his comeback to be England's No 1 [...]

Objective observers, however, will deem it a major surprise if Sidebottom is excluded from England's team for the first Test in Kandy
Ryan Sidebottom in full swing for England - Telegraph
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2007, 01:36 PM in reply to Notts Exile's post starting "He hasn't shown it for far too long. ..."
cantplaycantalk cantplaycantalk is offline
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My take on the bowlers here.

Harmison needs fast bouncy wickets to get the best out of him, he will get sharp bounce on such tracks and be a very difficult prospect to deal with. He also needs overs under his belt, he is a rythm bowler and needs to have been bowling consistently for a while before he really gets dangerous. I would not play him in Sri-Lanka as the pitches will not suit him.
Hoggard can bowl all day on any pitch he will do as well as anyone in Sri Lanka and should be pick no1 of the seamers. An English Vaas effectively.
Sidebottoom has a lot of variation and should play although he may struggle with the older ball and we will need the spinners to be in form.
Broad is a decent batsman and is probably the best 3rd seamer option for pitches where we need a 3rd seamer and can't fall back on Colly, Bell and Bopara.

Batting - It is generally strong but we will need to be able to cope with Murali on pitches that have been specially prepared for him.

Keeper - Mustard is not a spin specialist as a batsman, he is much better attacking fast and medium paced bowlers. I don't think he is a good choice for Sri-Lanka at the moment.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2007, 03:10 AM in reply to Rachael's post starting "A report in one paper the other day..."
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darksideofthemoon darksideofthemoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael View Post
A report in one paper the other day suggested that Sidebottom, aside from being a left-armer, could be counted on to extract a lot more bounce than Hoggard: he was apparently bowling at a lively enough pace in the ODI series and was basically doing what you want of Harmison.

Broad is also 6' 5" tall and has a high action... so if the management want height and Harmison is NOT bowling well in the next warm up... he might still enter the reckoning.

As I see it, the play off comes down to Swann, Harmison and Broad... with Anderson only coming in if Hoggard or Sidebottom are injured or if he's able to convince the management that he's the closest thing they've got to a reverse swing specialist.
I agree Anderson would only come in if Sidebottom or Hoggard were injured. Sidebottom is quite tall at 6'3 and does get more bounce that Hoggard. I think the three bowlers will be Hoggard, Sidebottom and Broad.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2007, 09:49 PM in reply to darksideofthemoon's post starting "I agree Anderson would only come in if..."
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Ernest Ernest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darksideofthemoon View Post
I think the three bowlers will be Hoggard, Sidebottom and Broad.
Disaster if this is so! - either Sidebottom or Hoggard should be in the side to back up strike bowlers, or in Hoggards case you can open with him.

Harmison should be in the side - he is the only genuine quick with Flintoff injured,

Hoggard
Harmison
Broad
Swann
Panesar.

I would not as a rule pick two spinners, but this is better than a one paced seam attack IMO.

The fact that Broad and Sidebottom are tall and get bounce makes little difference at their pace, in fact get the length a little wrong and the balls there to be smacked.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 24-11-2007, 10:18 PM in reply to Ernest's post starting "Disaster if this is so! - either..."
Rachael Rachael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest View Post
The fact that Broad and Sidebottom are tall and get bounce makes little difference at their pace, in fact get the length a little wrong and the balls there to be smacked.
Come on Ern: as Atherton repeatedly showed... even Donald's pace doesn't stop loose deliveries getting smacked. Once you get past a military medium deliveries the pace is more than enough: what matters is not bowling those loose deliveries.

That said.. Sidebottom has shown himself quite capable of bowling at close to 90 mph.

On a more serious note.... Otis Gibson has had things to say that might interest you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otis Gibson
Who knows whether the force will return in time for this series
The report concludes that "it looks as if England's pace attack for the first Test will be Ryan Sidebottom, Matthew Hoggard and one of Stuart Broad or James Anderson": exactly what most of us on this thread are suggesting.

Otis Gibson'd also got thoughts on Flintoff that should cheer you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otis Gibson
As they get older, bowlers tend to get wiser, and his 90 mph phase might move into one where he cuts his pace and moves the ball around more. As a coach I'm all about skill. Not every action is the same but every bowler can develop skills. If we can up Freddie's skills, we can give him options so he doesn't have to pound in all the time
Sounds pretty encouraging to me.... and those views certainly come as a blessed relief from the monotonous droning about pace that characterised the Fletcher years.

See Ingenious Ottis Gibson faces huge England test - Telegraph

Last edited by Rachael : 24-11-2007 at 10:41 PM.
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