You're trying to eb funny right? Flemming's been regarded by many as one of the greatest captains in recent years, He's far more innovative than Ponting who does some times look lost in the field - case in point the last few overs of the SCG match Ponting had st times a number of fielders in positions you would never describe as looking for a catch (when Aus still needed three wickets), I think he had a third man in place with three or four overs to go in the day.

Flemming has had considerably less expectation's placed on his captaincy than Ponting ever has.

Regard all you like, where are all the Flemming strings of cosecutive victories ?

Flemming did have a habit of quickly sending the attacking feilders back defending the boundary surprisingly early in games.

Flemming also had a habit of talking about draws as if they were victory's.

You can't compare the two men's records considering the cast gap in talent between the sides they've led. You have to go to the next level and look at the tactics they used, fields they implmented etc etc.

Flemming often got his side to perform above what they were expected to, particularly in the one day game.

Flemming still never captained his test teams to 16 consecutive wins.

Nor has he ever captained it to a sequence of not being beaten (thats allowing draws) in 16 consequtive games.

You seem to be arguing that Ponting should acheive something more than a win.

Nor has he ever spelt his surname with two "m"s

Like it or not, it's tough for a captain of a strong side to make a case for being considered anything special. In truth, it's tough for a dominant team to earn genuine credit. I believe Steve Waugh acknowledged this point: he noted the near impossibility of his side staking a claim to genuine greatness because of something he could not control - the quality of his opposition.

The famous win against India in India was undoubtedly a recent Aussie highlight simply because winning in INdia is regarded as being, in principle, a tougher challenge than most... but that result would have carried SO much more weight had the Indian side shaped up as expected rather than going AWOL.

Fleming has been far better positioned to gain credit: almost every time his side took to the field it was as the underdog. The NZ captain delivered, big time: his side was very often tougher to beat than expected... and pulled off upsets with astonishing regularity.

Ponting has never had the chance to shine that Lawry had when playing the awesome SA side of 1970... a consistently strong England with the likes of Boycott, Edrich, Cowdrey, Barrington, Graveney, Amiss, D'oliveira, Knott, Underwood, Illingworth, Snow and co in 1968... plus a strong WI side including Kanhai, Nurse, Butcher, Lloyd, Sobers, Hall, Griffiths and Gibbs.

Between Lawry and Ponting, Aussie sides have consistently faced tougher challenges than any around today: one hardly needs reminding of the WI sequence of sides that could have challenged the 1970s SA lot.. but Pakistan reached impressive peaks from which they have subsided quite spectacularly and even SA had a brief resurgence - and that's aside from many stronger England sides than Ponting thrashed in 2007.

You can only play the opposition in front of you... but you need a great rival in front of you on a regular basis to even be in with a chance of emerging as a great.

That said... captaincy is also about leadership and being an ambassador for the sport... and Ponting's always been found wanting on that front, consistently failing to even manage the small matter of being a passable role model.

I was trying to give him a leg up adding something consecutive.

Stephen Fleming (now singulized m) does not have a positive win/loss record captaining either form of the international game.

Test matches 26 wins from 80 matches.....30.71% win ratio

One Day Int 98 wins from 204 matches....48.04% win ratio

Ricky Ponting does have a positive win/loss record captaining in both forms of the game

Test matches 31 wins from 39 matchs......79.48% win ratio

One Day Int 119 wins from 154 matches..77.27% win ratio

There seems to be a misconception by some that Ponting should allow Brad Hogg the same amount of attacking feilders as formerly enjoyed by Shane Warne.

Brad needs a lot more protection than Warne and he does not do any where near as much through the air, off the pitch or in the batsmens head as Warne.

You're completly ignoring my point, you cannot compare the two men's win records and so oh well Ponting is better he wins more. The fact is almost none of the players Fleming has had under his control while captain would even make it into the Aussie team, or even the second XI.

A lot of Australia's success is thnks to the depth of world class players they have, I'm not saying my grandma could captain them to victory but they don't need as much captaining and leadership as say the Kiwis or the Windies.

Going into hypothetical land here If the two men were captaining each other's team there is no way Ponting would have the same record with NZ as Fleming has had. He's not as skilled in leadership and on-field tactics.

Going on and on about win ratios is pointless when you look at the two teams they were leading. I'd love to see Ponting try and win with a pace attack of Martin, Mills and O'Brien instead of Clark, Watson and Lee.

sorry gibbs fan i accidently deleted you post

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434, world record for the shortest period. Whos choking now?

teehee - and when have we ever seen Punter walk early?

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never believe anything until it is officially denied . . .