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Old 27-01-2008, 09:44 PM
Kasamse Kasamse is offline
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Harbhajan Singh

Harbhajan Singh has been the real disappointment in this series. Apart from Ponting, he has not even troubled any other batsman.

His batting has been good, but we want him to take wickets and win matches for India rather than score runs.

I wonder whether this is the beggining of the end for him.
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Old 27-01-2008, 09:49 PM in reply to Kasamse's post "Harbhajan Singh"
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Ian Chappell would agree:
Quote:
RS: Do you think India's bowling attack failed to live up to the promise, especially the spinners - they took 181 overs to bowl the Australians out?

IC: Yes, I thought Harbhajan [Singh] was well and truly outbowled by [Virender] Sehwag. Sehwag looked dangerous, and I don't think Harbhajan looked dangerous at all. As a captain what you want to see is a spin bowler who is beating the batsman in flight. That doesn't mean you take a wicket every time you beat a batsman in flight but it means that you cause him some concern, and I only saw one or two occasions when Harbhajan did that. The other problem I saw with Harbhajan's bowling was too much variation in line and length. With a finger spinner you don't want these great variations in line and length, you expect it from a wrist spinner but not a finger spinner. I think the angle Harbhajan bowls at when he is over the wicket to a right-hander is playing into the right-hander's wheelhouse. He comes on an angle that is heading towards middle and leg, and that means the right-handers can easily work him to the on side. So, some things to sort out for Harbhajan.
See Cricinfo - Ian Chappell: A fine partnership between Ponting and Clarke - Transcript

Ravi Shastri has echoed those thoughts...
Quote:
Ranjit Shinde: India's spinners, on a day when a lot was expected of them, did not really manage to penetrate. Harbhajan Singh and Anil Kumble bowled 78 overs between them in the innings for just two wickets. You expect them to do better than that?

Ravi Shastri: Anil Kumble, I think, was not fully fit. I think he had a problem with his shoulder and hence you did not see best of Anil in this Australian innings, but Harbhajan Singh was a huge disappointment. One would have expected him to get a lot more out of this track and take more wickets as well, but he did not look like getting wickets, and it was Virender Sehwag who was the pick of the [Indian] spinners. I thought he bowled well, and the fact that he is not used to bowling longer spells didn't help. Otherwise, he looked like the spinner most likely to get wickets.
See Cricinfo - Ravi Shastri: Harbhajan Singh was a huge disappointment - Transcript

Last edited by Rachael : 27-01-2008 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 27-01-2008, 09:52 PM in reply to Rachael's post starting "Ian Chappell would agree: See Cricinfo..."
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I think Rachael that this backs up the thinking that finger spinners in particular Off Spinners have been sussed by the worlds best batsmen years ago.
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Old 27-01-2008, 10:00 PM in reply to Ernest's post starting "I think Rachael that this backs up the..."
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Not really: Harbhajan has always been over-hyped because he can generate huge turn off the pitch... but all his comparative ineffectiveness demonstrates is that finger-spin is far more about building pressure through consistency of line/length and about defeating batsmen in the air rather than off the deck.

Adelaide is particularly unforgiving for any bowler that strays off a good line and length: there's not the bounce (or uneven-ness) needed to pose a threat off the pitch... and the square boundaries put a further premium on accuracy and guile.
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Old 27-01-2008, 11:10 PM in reply to Rachael's post starting "Not really: Harbhajan has always been..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael View Post
Not really: Harbhajan has always been over-hyped because he can generate huge turn off the pitch... but all his comparative ineffectiveness demonstrates is that finger-spin is far more about building pressure through consistency of line/length and about defeating batsmen in the air rather than off the deck.

Adelaide is particularly unforgiving for any bowler that strays off a good line and length: there's not the bounce (or uneven-ness) needed to pose a threat off the pitch... and the square boundaries put a further premium on accuracy and guile.
I agree that Harbhajan has been highly over-rated as a bowler. Apart from one series against Australia in 2001, he has hardly done anything worthwhile.

I doubt very much whether he is known for extracting "huge" spin as you say.

The other thing is that Harbhajan bowls too quick for a spin bowler. He just does not use flight as a weapon which one would expect from a quality off-spinner.

Even at the SCG, he was totally ineffective.

Top class spinners bowling in tandem on this pitch in Adelaide should have secured a big lead for their team after their batsmen had scored 526 in the first innings.
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Old 27-01-2008, 11:12 PM in reply to Rachael's post starting "Not really: Harbhajan has always been..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael View Post
but all his comparative ineffectiveness demonstrates is that finger-spin is far more about building pressure through consistency of line/length and about defeating batsmen in the air rather than off the deck.
I agree with that - but who since Embury is able to bowl a consistent line and length like an off spinner needs to?, it's IMO a dying art.

Underwood arguably was the best finger spinner without getting heaps of turn, (I know you regard him as a medium pacer) but got lots od wickets by being accurate delivery after delivery, I never knew a spin bowler who could create so much pressure.
I think the links below will say what I mean.

Cricinfo - Is the finger-spinner a dying breed?
And this
Cricket: Finger spinners under threat of extinction | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Independent
But if England's finger spinners have rarely dominated in the last decade - only Phil Tufnell has won Test matches - extinction threatens on a global scale. Of all the Test bowlers who have taken 100 Test wickets since 1993, and there have been 11, only one is a finger spinner: Sri Lanka's Muttiah Muralitharan.
And is Murali a true finger spinner - IMO I think not.
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Old 28-01-2008, 12:14 AM in reply to Ernest's post starting "I agree with that - but who since..."
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I think this series has been an ordeal.

Harbhajan after all the controversy and missing out in playing in India's victory in Perth. Has probably come into this match physiologically exhausted and down in confidence on what I think is a terrible test match pitch.

Brad Hogg deserves all the same criticism that Harbhajan is copping. Not to mention the batsmen who missed out like Ganguly and Hussey
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Old 28-01-2008, 02:02 AM in reply to Ernest's post starting "I agree with that - but who since..."
Aurelius Aurelius is offline
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But the thing with that Independant article is that it was written in 1998. Since then, I'd say that finger-spin is on the rise. England have unearthed Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann (I really can't understand why they don't give him a chance), South Africa have Paul Harris, Zimbabwe have Prosper Utseya (with Ray Price still going strong), New Zealand already has Daniel Vettori with Jeetan Patel coming through, and apparently even the West Indies have a potential offie in Amit Juggernaught. So it does look to me like there's a few decent finger-spinners in the mix.
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Old 28-01-2008, 02:30 AM in reply to Aurelius's post starting "But the thing with that Independant..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
But the thing with that Independant article is that it was written in 1998. Since then, I'd say that finger-spin is on the rise. England have unearthed Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann (I really can't understand why they don't give him a chance), South Africa have Paul Harris, Zimbabwe have Prosper Utseya (with Ray Price still going strong), New Zealand already has Daniel Vettori with Jeetan Patel coming through, and apparently even the West Indies have a potential offie in Amit Juggernaught. So it does look to me like there's a few decent finger-spinners in the mix.
I believe the thread is about Harbhajan and not the pros and cons or the demise of finger spin bowling in general. What is Harbhajan doing wrong? In my opinion, everything... He perhaps needs to have a long session with the yesteryear spinners of India - the likes of Bedi and Prasanna...
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Old 28-01-2008, 02:33 AM in reply to acker's post starting "I think this series has been an..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acker View Post
Has probably come into this match physiologically exhausted and down in confidence on what I think is a terrible test match pitch.
Even until the time of controversy at the SCG, Harbhajan bowled very poorly and never looked like getting a wicket - he did not even trouble any batsman.
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