NOT THE USUAL ZIMBABWE THREAD Continued In Mens Cricket.

[Notts Exile]

Our Foreign Secretary shakes Mugabe's hand, so I wouldn't expect any sense out of them anyway!!

[flanflinger]

It was dark, and he didn't have his glasses on.....

[Beny]

Originally Posted by R W S 22848

Beny - you cannot be aware of the depth of feeling this issue has generated here. We do have some hypocracy in our views because we have hosted Zim for both Tests and ODIs but that doesnt diminish the many valid opinions expressed on the state of cricket in Zim.

Please get yourself better informed and then contribute rather than passing glib remarks. They truely rankle.

Here is a list of other threads in this forum that will enlighten you . . .

Ex-Zim chief to drop bombshell
England-Zimbabwe tour
Much Respect to Harmison
Has the ZCU guaranteed its suspension?
ZCU racism enquiry delayed
England Tour party to Zimbabwe
Zimbabwian test status
Another nail in the Zimbabwe coffin!
Blair says don't tour
Zimbabwe - Test Called off
Zimbabwe humilated
Zimbabwe
streak and the zcu

Thanks guys for trying to inform me as I've only been writing letters to the goverment for the past year so of course what would I know....

And the point about genocide is far from the mark. For people who claim to know so much you seem to have missed a few key points about the situation.

Flanfingers post could eaisily be applied to most western nations if you wanted to get technical.

sometimes you do get the feeling that the ECB are the only board who are having problems. If the ACB or the NZ Cricket board should a bit more back-bone, then maybe something might spur the ECB into really making a stand.

Now not only does this annoy me but what effect exactly do you feel that a cricket tour is going to have on the situation. These guys dont care about what the international community thinks, that was shown by their leaving the Commonwealth... Yeah that thing.. you know where our PM has been doing everything he can to enforce laws against Zimbabwe closely aided by the British goverment who a few people on this board think have done nothing but in fact have done a fantastic job in a very delicate political situation.

[Beny]

.

Gosh Beny Assylem seekers are a problem the world over, non more so than in Europe, why are there so many Assylem seekers, because the are in the main fleeing tyranical tyrents the like of Magabe

Not like they are in Australia... I can't be botherd explaining but just go and do some reserch. The U.N Human rights commision recently condemmed it. Mind you they do have Sudan siting as a member so lets talk hypocrisy.

[Beny]

Are you suggesting for a moment that Australia has a human rights record the same as in Zimbabwe, no I think Not, wheather you like Mr Howard or not, does he order genaside, I think not, are you starving Beny, I think not, have you the right to vote Mr Howard out of office> Yes Beny I think you have.

Close... No I'm not starving but then neither is zimbabwe. No Mr Howard Dosent order genocide but then neither does Mugabe. True that he cannot be voted out of office and thats not good but compared to the rest of the problems in the world. ditto.

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Beny

Close... No I'm not starving but then neither is zimbabwe. No Mr Howard Dosent order genocide but then neither does Mugabe. True that he cannot be voted out of office and thats not good but compared to the rest of the problems in the world. ditto.

Genocide
Maybe he does not order it, we are not privy to the inner workings of the Zimbabwean govt; however it is well documented that thugs and miscreants from his political party (the Zanu PF) have carried out campaigns of intimidation, torture and oppression against innocents and political opponents, all in his name. Genocide is an emotive word and has a very narrow definition under UN and Geneva conventions - the UN has not even yet agreed to call the situation in Darfur, Sudan a genocide, which is inarguably much worse than Zimbabwe or anywhere else in the world probably.

Suffice to say that sufficient oppression and human rights violations occur regularly in Zimbabwe to make it a fairly unpleasant place for anyone who does not agree with the President, whether they are political opponents, the local press, innocent bystanders, white farmers, etc.

Famine
Zimbabwe does have famine, and many reasoned observers do believe that this has been caused by the above - ie the oppression and scaring of farmers has meant no crops.
Causality for something like a famine is a complex issue, since no one turns off a switch to cause starvation - however, there is enough evidence to state that the political leadership there has stood by, allowing this situation to fester, and at the very least, is complicit.


To clarify, the above is not a post for or against touring there - simply an attempt to encapsulate the facts about a sad human rights situation.

[Beny]

Originally Posted by Maranello 22897

Genocide
Maybe he does not order it, we are not privy to the inner workings of the Zimbabwean govt; however it is well documented that thugs and miscreants from his political party (the Zanu PF) have carried out campaigns of intimidation, torture and oppression against innocents and political opponents, all in his name. Genocide is an emotive word and has a very narrow definition under UN and Geneva conventions - the UN has not even yet agreed to call the situation in Darfur, Sudan a genocide, which is inarguably much worse than Zimbabwe or anywhere else in the world probably.

Suffice to say that sufficient oppression and human rights violations occur regularly in Zimbabwe to make it a fairly unpleasant place for anyone who does not agree with the President, whether they are political opponents, the local press, innocent bystanders, white farmers, etc.

Famine
Zimbabwe does have famine, and many reasoned observers do believe that this has been caused by the above - ie the oppression and scaring of farmers has meant no crops.
Causality for something like a famine is a complex issue, since no one turns off a switch to cause starvation - however, there is enough evidence to state that the political leadership there has stood by, allowing this situation to fester, and at the very least, is complicit.


To clarify, the above is not a post for or against touring there - simply an attempt to encapsulate the facts about a sad human rights situation.

Genocide is the systematic killing of a racial or cultural group.

What the Zimbabweian govt has been doing is allowing armed groups of blacks to intimidate, tresspas and in some cases attack and murdur white farmers.

Darfur is Genocide Zimabwe is not however the rest of the world is for some reason refusing to call it that. Perhaps they might have to do something if that were the case.

The famine is certinly no worse in Zimbabwe than it is anywhere else in africa and it is really stretiching to try and find a reason to blame the goverment for it.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Beny

Thanks guys for trying to inform me as I've only been writing letters to the goverment for the past year so of course what would I know....

And the point about genocide is far from the mark. For people who claim to know so much you seem to have missed a few key points about the situation.

.

For someone who knows so know so much, you seem to have missed some well know facts. In the 1980's the Mugabe Government undertook a systematic attempt to wipe out the Ndebele people. 20,000 of them were killed. The Ndebele people make up a 14% of the population. Mugabe comes from the majority Shona people. That my friend is genocide, an attempt to wipe out a specfic racial group.

The CIA world factbook says this about the Zimbabwe regieme

Robert MUGABE, the nation's first prime minister, has been the country's only ruler (as president since 1987) and has dominated the country's political system since independence. His chaotic land redistribution campaign begun in 2000 caused an exodus of white farmers, crippled the economy, and ushered in widespread shortages of basic commodities. Ignoring international condemnation, MUGABE rigged the 2002 presidential election to ensure his reelection. Opposition and labor groups launched general strikes in 2003 to pressure MUGABE to retire early; security forces continued their brutal repression of regime opponents.

Can this be applied to "any" other nation... What difference will a Cricket tour make? I really couldn't say, but I would prefer that they were not touring..

[Beny]

Can this be applied to "any" other nation...

You mean like Sudan where 300,000 are dead and 1 million without homes? Or Rwanda or China or Nigeria or Iraq or North Korea....? The List goes on.

I've never heard about this genocide which i'm suprissed has never been reported in Aus (or perhaps I missed it). Surprising since alot of other thing over there have.and to say that the goverment alone is responsible for the famine is rediculos but popular and easy.

Regardless you miss the point of my intial post.
You guys are going. There is little concern for security and pulling out is not going to do anything. Get over it and get on with it.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Can this be applied to "any" other nation...

Beny,

Should have clarified, I was refering primarliy to Cricket nations. I do agree that there are other nations with equally poor (and often worse) human rights records. But we are not sending a highly profile representative team there...