"Unusual" England cricket team

[Occasional Fan]

One of the most heartening comments in this thread was the one which said "I've never thought about it" or "I hadn't noticed". I look forward to the day when none of us notices.

(Just as an aside, I have been listening to cricket on the radio for upwards of twenty years, and one of the most musical voices of West Indian tours has always been, for me, that of Tony Cozier. I was genuinely surprised to see him for the first time on the TV last year and to discover that he is a white man.)

[Maranello]

Is he really? Wow, that is a surprise. I first listened to him in the mid-80s when Pak toured WI and the only way one could keep up with it, in the days before Internet and Satellite TV, was through short-wave radio! Spent many an enjoyable night in Pakistan listening to these chaps... Anyway, quite a surprise that he is not African. But then, it does not matter either way in any case :-)

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Maranello

I have spent years of my life amongst thousands of British Asians, first, second and third generation immigrants, and nearly all the cricket fans amongst them have been united in their complete lack of support for the English cricket team, and their (often) inexplicable support for whoever is playing against England on the day. There are quite a few British Asians who are members of this board; how many of them support England, even as a second team, and how many support India, Pakistan, West Indies, in fact anyone but England?

The old Norman Tebbit test of citizenship!!

It has often worried me why so many British Asians would support England at football and support British Football teams, but would not support England at Cricket. My only conclusion is that as there is no Pakistani and India Football team (to speak of) they do not have a clash of allegance.

I would love to see more British Asians supporting England. I have always sadi that if I moved to Australia, I would continue to support England, but would encourage any children I may have to support Australia.

I lived in a mainly Pakistani community while at Uni in Huddersfield and was always distressed to see young Asians playing Cricket whilst wearing Pakistan shirts. Marnello, I would love to know your thoughts on why these third (and now even fourth) generation Asians choose to contuninue to support a distant land of their grand-fathers?

I do love it when players like Nasser Hussain and Vikram Solanki, play with pride for England, kissing the three lions on completions of the centuries. It was great in the 80's and 90's seeing Defratis, Small, Malcolm charging in for England.

Maranello, it is a great question you have raised. The Cricket Autorities may have much to blame for restricting opportunities for Asian players (not in Worcseter or Leicster though!!) but the Asian community itself needs to take some responsibilty as well, for not encourgaing their youngsters to feel pride in the land of the birth (PS this should never detract at all from their Heritage)

[Ernest]

Tony Cozier above.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/2615087.stm .

[Maranello]

I agree FF, this is quite an interesting and profound question. I don't think the answer has anything to do with whatever the English cricket authorities could or could not do, or affirmative action quotas, or other "multi-culti race relations industry" type nonsense.

My impression is that most British Asians amongst those who are born here, do rightly take pride in the land of their birth, and do support England/Britain at football, and other sports. That they do not support the England cricket team should not detract from them being patriotic. But the question remains, why? I guess the answer lies in history, in the nature of the relationship between Britain and its English colonies, the perceptions of English cricketers, and the impression all this left on the earlier immigrants. Thankfully, I am not a sociologist so am unable to give a comprehensive answer. As you say, the fact that Pakistan have had a very good cricket team throughout the years, and a very robust cricketing rivalry with England has probably been a key factor too.

I agree with your comment about immigrating to Aus, though there is probably a greater cultural affinity between England and Australia, than between England and India/Pakistan.

The interesting question, and a similar one to the Pakistanis and cricket scenario, would be to consider this: if an Englishman moved to Germany, would he encourage his children born there to support Germany at soccer? Or, for that matter, would the thousands of Scottish and Irish people who have been settled in England for generations ever support England in football or rugby? Somehow, I doubt it. I believe that this does not make them, or the British Pakistanis who act similarly, any less reponsible as citizens, or any less 'British', regardless of the piffle 'skinhead' Tebbitt may come out with.

For instance, I noticed that during the FIFA World Cup organised in the USA ('94), the Italian Americans, German Americans, Hispanics, the Pennsylvania Dutch, the Irish, all came out in large numbers to support the countries their ancestors came from, in same cases, over a 100 years ago! The fact they did not just support the USA team did not make them any less American, or any less patriotic.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Maranello

Or, for that matter, would the thousands of Scottish and Irish people who have been settled in England for generations ever support England in football or rugby?

Very true, I watched Harelquinns vs Munster on Saturday, and although there were lots of Irish Accents about - wearing the Red of Munster, there was also a huge amount of London accents. We still have London Irish/welsh/scottish Rugby clubs.

It also annoys me when British people go abroad and try to re-create England in Portugal and Spain. Not even attempting to speak the local language and setting up "English Pubs".

Can't think of anything worse than going to Spain and eating a diet of Fish and Chips, Pie and Chips etc....

In many ways you are right the fact that this England XI is entirely white, may not encourage Asians to support the Team.

However, did Nasser Hussains reign as England Captain mean that thousands of Indian kids became England fans? (Intrestingly with Nasser, if you didn't know his background you may not have thought he was Asaian, maybe he just looked too western?)

As an England fan, I know that we need to tap into these commmunities, as there is not just a wealth of talent, but also a greater enthusaism for the game. If we get it right, I beleive the long term success of the England team will be secure.

[Milo]

Good debate FF and Maranello, very nice to see it discussed with intelligence and genuine thought. I would add one thing, that I honestly believe (and have had this discussion with British Asians and many agree) that some players (Habib, Afzaal and possibly Solanki and Kabir Ali) were selected on the very basis of trying to attract the support of the British Asians. For whatever the reasons, and I think you both bring out good ones, it does not appear to have worked.

[Zainub]

Originally Posted by Maranello

ZR it's probably not helpful for you to wade into an issue without knowing the full facts. In any case, it seems you have apparently misunderstood what I perceive is the point behind the article, and definitely misunderstood my posts. .....Another seemingly strange assertion. Do you live here? What statistical proof do you base this claim on? For that matter, do you even have substantional anecdotal evidence to support this?

M,

You are very much entiled to your opinions, as is everyone else, including me. With respect to the article it self, I just don't think there was any point at all in mentioning the fact that there are no coloured players in the England team at this point in time.

No, I don't like in the UK, neither do I have statistical proof, I actually based that on an example of a family friend of ours that have now been living in the UK for the greater part of 3 decades, and now (rightly) support England in all sports, including cricket. May be I shouldn't have generalised as I understand now from reading your views, that such people are in minority. But they do exist, nevertheless.

On that subject it self, I'm very, very passionate about my origins and my country, but if say I was to move to any other cricket playing nation, I will not expect my future generations to do the same, as a matter of fact, I think I will very much encourage them to support the country of their birth, because that is what I would do my self.

[Maranello]

Some good points raised here, so I will try and add my thoughts to all below.

Originally Posted by flanflinger 35084

In many ways you are right the fact that this England XI is entirely white, may not encourage Asians to support the Team.

I don't think that is the main reason, or even a significant reason. I think there are many factors which lead to this, but the lack of Asians in the English cricket team is not one of them. After all, how many Asians are there playing for England in soccer, or playing for Manchester United, Newcastle, West Ham or Arsenal? That has not deterred thousands of British Asians from supporting these teams.

Originally Posted by flanflinger 35084

However, did Nasser Hussains reign as England Captain mean that thousands of Indian kids became England fans? (Intrestingly with Nasser, if you didn't know his background you may not have thought he was Asaian, maybe he just looked too western?)

Not with a name like that though You are right, I don't think many Indians could relate to him, because he had a "Muslim sounding" name, and many Pakistanis could not relate to him, because he was un-Asian and so Western in his habits and culture (as well as looks, family, etc).

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi 35100

now (rightly) support England in all sports, including cricket.

I don't think there is any "rightly" or "wrongly" about it Zainub. It is perfectly valid to stay true to your roots, origins and heritage and support the country your family originated from, and still be a responsible and decent citizen. On the other hand, it is also perfectly valid to say that supporting something as insignificant as a sports team does not imply you lose your identity or your heritage and so its quite okay to support the team of the country you live in; after all, heritage and culture is seldom so flimsy to be threatened by sports' following!

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi 35100

You are very much entiled to your opinions, as is everyone else, including me. With respect to the article it self, I just don't think there was any point at all in mentioning the fact that there are no coloured players in the England team at this point in time.

I disagree, it is well worth mentioning that fact, and questioning why this is the case. The article in Wisden Cricketer in Aug-04, linked to above by The Worker, was very interesting, and raised some thoughtful points whilst discussing the decline of cricket amongst England's Afro-Caribbean people. It is prefectly valid to ask the question why, and many cricket enthusiasts in England are in some way affected by this debate. Similarly, it is a sensible question to wonder why British Asians do not support England, but are avid and enthusiastic followers of India and Pakistan. Hence, there is definitely some merit in discussing these issues sensibly.

Originally Posted by flanflinger 35084

As an England fan, I know that we need to tap into these commmunities, as there is not just a wealth of talent, but also a greater enthusaism for the game. If we get it right, I beleive the long term success of the England team will be secure.

This I believe is the crucial point, and quite well expressed too. Hence ECB's efforts to bring in the support of these people, even by offering caps to the likes of Afzaal and Shah, as pointed out by Milo above. However, it has not worked. The question is...what will? Is time the only factor that will rectify things? I don't think so, since even the generation going to schools now (eg RD1 on this board) does not support England. Maybe then the English cricket authorities or the wider community need to do something? But what, and will it work? I am not sure. However, to use these facts, or anything else, to argue in favour of positive discrimination or affirmative action would I feel be unfair and blatantly wrong.

[Andy Mellon]

One thing - are we sure that what is being said here is actually the case. It seems to me that we are suggesting that a substantial amount of British Asians and Afro-Caribbeans actively support whoever is playing against England rather than supporting the country of their ethnic origin per se.

I have to say that a large amount of the Asians that I know support their team of origin first - I know many Indian fans. However, with the exception of one or two of them, they support England at all times unless England are playing India. Similarly with those of Pakistani extraction, Pakistan is the team they support first, England second. I can't imagine there are many Indians who'd support Pakistan ahead of England that live in England (or vice versa). If this is the case, then why is it that 'ethnic minorities' actively support whoever is playing against England? What is it in the nature of England which attracts this response? Is it purely down to the History of Empire, that many of these cricket fans are unhappy to be seen to support England?