SA v WI 4th test

[Ninjaman]

Lara constantly overshadows the rest of the team, to negative effect at times, in terms of confidence, IMO.

He overshadows them because he is the best batsman in the world, performs better than them and is not happy with some of the mediocrity the others seem happy to accept.

Viv Richards was a "bully" of sorts. Personally, having met both in person, I find Viv's personality harder to deal with. Yet, I don't remember many of his teammates not able to perform to their ability because of Viv's class.

IF Lara's teammates can't perform because of his presence then they have shown they can't deal with success and shouldn't be in the side.

No matter what other players do, it is always Lara who gets the credit

And no matter what other players do, it is always Lara who gets the blame.

- it would have been nice for a player like Gayle to achieve the world record, and get a bit of glory for themeleves.

First you have to acheive to get the glory. It seems everyone begrudges Lara for any glory that has come his way. But unlike many other sportmen he has actually earnt it with his on pitch brilliance.

If Gayle had broke the record, he would have got the glory. Records should go to those who acheive them, not those for whom it would be nice.

Even though he didn't make it in the end, it was a great effort, and far more enjoyable an innings from a spectators point of view than Lara's world record, IMO.

The first 150 was, the 2nd 150 was not.

There is no denying Lara is a great batsmen, no doubt at all - I just don't warm to him as an individual. He seems to come off as a rather self-centered perosn, a bit of a cold fish who has an elevated view of his own worth. he also tends to whinge when things go wrong, rather than admit any wrong doing! But that's just how I read him

Have you ever met him?? If you have, so be it, but if you have not, how can you speculate as to what he is like as an individual.

When he broke the world record, he had a parade and made it a point of duty to have the likes of Jacobs, Rampaul and Bravo right beside him to share in it.

He actually on 2 occasions said Gayle had the ability to break first Hayden's and then his world records.

On return after the ICC triumph, he actually said that Chanderpaul was the best batsman on the team.

So much for self centred.

I found him to be generous and like most people, weary of those who are out to criticise him if they stub their own toes. He takes far more criticism than is due to any one individual and chooses to still conduct himself in public respectfully and answer back with his bat.

Tne fact of the matter is on a team not everyone has to like everybody else but realise that they should all be moving towards a common goal, i.e. winning.

I know for a fact that every single one of those young players idolise Brian Lara and the picture that everyone tries to create qweek in week out that he goes around and is selfish towards everybody is just so funny it is a shame.

Gayle has gone to Sobers to correct his problems and it has come off in the form of a triple.

Lara did that yonks ago on his own steam and since then has scored runs at a high average since then.

So self centred he was that he sacrificed his captaincy and a place on the 1st Test, to stand by Gayle, Sarwan, Edwards and Bravo because like he, they had a C&W contract, and he had to express solidarity.

An elevated view of his own worth??

Only Bradman and Headley have shouldered more of his team's run burden than Brian Lara.

He has been the one thing that we can consistently look upon as good in the region nowadays with Chanderpaul coming a good second.

His worth is, he is still at this relatively advanced age, still the man.

And that condition is due to his high performance and the underperformance of his teammates. He should be commended for the former but blamed in no way for the latter.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Occasional Fan

I'd be pretty disappointed if it were my money. Same last year. Will there ever be a result in Antigua again? It seems that the pitch is prepared with other objectives in mind.

I was at Antigua last year when Lara broke the record and their was no disappointment. I am sure there was none when Gayle got 300.

Games in the Caribbean are far more enjoyable than those in say, England. Far more lively, colourful and with a multitude of things to do.

Warmer weather, better food available, music, horns, bells etc... Every other person a cricket expert willing to have a debate with you. And for the guys, quite a few nice thigs to look at too

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

how can you speculate as to what he is like as an individual.

At the end of the day, we are all entitled to our views, Ninjaman - even if you were to belive that Lara is the most wonderful, caring person in the history of the world, then that would be your right!!! I have read and seen enough of Lara in interviews he has given, and from what others have said about him, to express my own view that he has his flaws, just like all of us. I don't warm to the man at all - and I stand by my views of him.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Teatime FatCat

I agree totally. Surely this was a three-test series with some kind of flat wicket batting exhibition that lasts for 5 days tacked onto the end. It was the same against england last time they were there.

This pitch is set up each year to allow Brian Lara et al to have a tilt at the world record and it's a farce, and devalues the record. Drop it from the international itinerary say I!!!!!

The pitch is set up each year for him to get the world record??

Hatred is a sad thing.

1994 vs England 375 not out World record by Lara.
1995 vs Australia Match drawn. No one scores a century. Lara gets 88 and 43
1996 vS NZ. Draw. Adams gets a double. Robert Samuels & Astle get 100s. Lara makes 40 and 74 (from 184)
1997 vs India. Just 2 days rain affected. Lara gets 103
1997 vs SL. WI win. Lara makes 0 and 4!!! So much for a world record. No centuries for anyone.
1998 vs England. Win win by an innings. Lara makes 89. N Hussain, Lambert and Hooper get centuries.
1999 vs Australia. Aus win. Lara makes 100 off 84 balls (15x4 3x6) out of 222 and 7.
2000 vs Pakistan. WI win by 1 wicket. Youhana gets a century. Lara does not play.
2001 vs South Africa. SA win. Lara gets 19 and 91. No other WI player gets over 30 in 2nd innings. Lose by 82 runs.
2002 vs India Draw. India get 513. WI get 639. Surprise Lara gets just 4. Match has 5 centurions
2003 vs Australia. WI win. Another world record. 418 for 7 to win. Lara gets 68 and 60. The other team members finally step up and WI win a game vs Australia (4 centurions) Hayden gets 177!! Both 1st Inns scores "only" 240
2004 vs England. Draw World record reclaimed.

As for devaluing a world record

The same bowling attack and main bowler who was brilliiant for reducing WI to 47 all out was the same one dispatched for that 400 runs.

Streak, Blignaut, Ervine, Price, Gripper doesn't fill me with confidence. Yet Hayden filled his boots

When Sobers got 365*, Pakistan used fill in bowlers and their first bowler only bowled five balls and played no more part in the game.

Hutton got 364 off 847 balls in a timeless Test.

Before that Hammond got the record off the mighty New Zealand!!!

I could go on.

The record is what it is, the highest score ever scored. Lara holds it.

Gayle batted for 438 minutes and we acknowledge he was knackered after that and his bowling.

Lara batted for 778 minutes for his 400.

Accept them for what they are, they are not the greatest innings ever but the most ruins heavy and biggest.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

At the end of the day, we are all entitled to our views, Ninjaman - even if you were to belive that Lara is the most wonderful, caring person in the history of the world, then that would be your right!!! I have read and seen enough of Lara in interviews he has given, and from what others have said about him, to express my own view that he has his flaws, just like all of us. I don't warm to the man at all - and I stand by my views of him.

I don't believe he is the most wonderful, caring person in the world. I can find traits of his I think he could improve on.

What you think of him is your own opinion to make my friend.

I am saying you must be wary of many of the views expressed about him because some are born of pure jealousy.

The likes of Adams and Walsh have continually been mentioned as people Lara undermined and did not get on with. But, as my countrymen, they have told me personally that they get along and have nothing but respect for each other even with the differences that will occur from time to time. The likes of Colin Croft criticises Lara's captaincy then defends Chanderpaul's using criteria that should have to be used to defend Lara.

Of course he has his flaws. We all do.

Warm to whomever you wish.

I would like to know what you have seen that has caused you to form your opinion of him and that is an honest request.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

I was at Antigua last year when Lara broke the record and their was no disappointment. I am sure there was none when Gayle got 300.

Games in the Caribbean are far more enjoyable than those in say, England ...

Ninjaman - I agree with you that the atmosphere at games in the Caribbean is wonderful (based only on a couple of visits to Bridgetown), and I have probably enjoyed myself more at games there than in England. I'm also sure there was no disappointment at Lara's record or Gayle's 300, and if I'd been there on either occasion I would have been on my feet and applauding with the best of them. But taking the games as a whole, I would have been disappointed to see events heading for a draw almost from the off. I really want to see games played with the initial intention on both sides being to get a win. I have a niggling suspicion - no more, and nothing which I can even begin to prove - that the pitch in Antigua has been prepared for the fourth test last year and this with a view not to allowing a result, but rather to allowing shots at record breaking batting. That takes nothing away from Lara's 400*, nor from the fact that the recent match yielded a record eight centuries, but if I wanted to see a batting exhibition I'd pay for it. I prefer to see a genuine contest, and I'm not convinced Antigua has provided one in 2004 or 2005.

[Teatime FatCat]

Games in the Caribbean are far more enjoyable than those in say, England. Far more lively, colourful and with a multitude of things to do.

Warmer weather, better food available, music, horns, bells etc... Every other person a cricket expert willing to have a debate with you. And for the guys, quite a few nice thigs to look at too [/quote]


Unfortunately, no chance of a result!

[Teatime FatCat]

[quote=Ninjaman ]The pitch is set up each year for him to get the world record??

Hatred is a sad thing.

1994 vs England 375 not out World record by Lara.
1995 vs Australia Match drawn. No one scores a century. Lara gets 88 and 43
1996 vS NZ. Draw. Adams gets a double. Robert Samuels & Astle get 100s. Lara makes 40 and 74 (from 184)
1997 vs India. Just 2 days rain affected. Lara gets 103
1997 vs SL. WI win. Lara makes 0 and 4!!! So much for a world record. No centuries for anyone.
1998 vs England. Win win by an innings. Lara makes 89. N Hussain, Lambert and Hooper get centuries.
1999 vs Australia. Aus win. Lara makes 100 off 84 balls (15x4 3x6) out of 222 and 7.
2000 vs Pakistan. WI win by 1 wicket. Youhana gets a century. Lara does not play.
2001 vs South Africa. SA win. Lara gets 19 and 91. No other WI player gets over 30 in 2nd innings. Lose by 82 runs.
2002 vs India Draw. India get 513. WI get 639. Surprise Lara gets just 4. Match has 5 centurions
2003 vs Australia. WI win. Another world record. 418 for 7 to win. Lara gets 68 and 60. The other team members finally step up and WI win a game vs Australia (4 centurions) Hayden gets 177!! Both 1st Inns scores "only" 240
2004 vs England. Draw World record reclaimed.


Whoa there Ninjaman!! - you've got completely the wrong end of the stick and appear to be under impression that I'm persecuting Lara. In fact you've gone as far as suggesting that I hate Lara, which is completely out of order.

My point was that the pitch is set up each year for Lara et al (ie anyone) to go and get the world record, that could be Brian, Gayle, Ponting, Hayen, Inzi, Stauss - anyone. It's happened there twice in recent years, and it just happens to be recognised as one of the flattest pitches in the world. My complaint was with the pitch and the farcical bowling - it just seems a waste of 5 days of everybody's life to play there at the moment.

BC Lara is a great player, and not everybody in the world reviles him. In fact most of the complaints about him seem to come from your own press and players. Read the Ridley Jacobs article on cricinfo today. Ridley has been reported in the press as a good bloke and a solid member of the team - yet he's absolutely slated him today. If people that close to BC Lara have that sort of opinion of him and it's then widely quoted in the press, are you surprised that people gain mixed impressions of the man?

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Teatime FatCat

Whoa there Ninjaman!! - you've got completely the wrong end of the stick and appear to be under impression that I'm persecuting Lara. In fact you've gone as far as suggesting that I hate Lara, which is completely out of order.

You stated that EVERY year it is set up in order for Lara and co. to break the world record.

The last 2 years are not every year.

In the last 10 years only Lara, Gayle and Adams have passed 200 at Antigua.

Anyway, a new stadium is being built in Antigua so I assume all we get there wish.

BC Lara is a great player, and not everybody in the world reviles him. In fact most of the complaints about him seem to come from your own press and players. Read the Ridley Jacobs article on cricinfo today. Ridley has been reported in the press as a good bloke and a solid member of the team - yet he's absolutely slated him today. If people that close to BC Lara have that sort of opinion of him and it's then widely quoted in the press, are you surprised that people gain mixed impressions of the man?

I actually read Jacobs' comments yesterday before cricinfo lifted his comments.

His comments are actually not that slating of Lara at all.

Also cricinfo, make no mention of the ill treatment he received from the management of WI not Lara and conveniently leave that out.

Let's see

"Honestly? The biggest problem is the skipper. The skipper sets the tone for the whole team. You can"t be captain and always want to be in the spotlight. You can"t be a good captain and have an attitude when you don"t do well," Jacobs told Essential.
"A captain has to be able to motivate his team. He can"t afford to be selfish. With this captain, it is not for the love of the game anymore; it's for him."

The biggest problem is the skipper??

WI have been in decline from when Viv was captain and in the last 10 years our form has been poor. This is no recent thing at all. So one must assume the same lack of captaincy ability existed in Ricahrdson, Walsh, Hooper, Adams and now Chanderpaul.

The biggest problem is our players, by and large, are not good enough and our regional game's structure is poor.

I want to know how Lara or any recent WI captain is going to motivate some of these players to perform at a decent level in Test cricket, when they don't even perform to that same level in domestic cricket.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be in the spotlight if like Lara, you earned it. That "attitude" and "selfishness" is why he scores runs. It is called professional pride and a desire to be as good as one can be at his/her chosen profession.

I want to know how being the captain and the best player on a poor side whilst achieving so much he can be anything BUT in the spotlight.

Lara wasn't too selfish when you were with him on his parade now was he??

Selfish with an attitude??

The desire to succeed and succeed big.

That is what makes him the successful batsman he is and one of the all time great sportsmen of our time.

Jacobs, who topped the batting and wicketkeeping aggregate at the end of the 2005 regional Carib Beer Series with 816 runs - including four centuries - and 27 dismissals, told Essential he would not play for the West Indies again even if he was selected

Well done Ridley. But when certain other people top batting aggregates it is used as a stick to beat them with as being selfish.

Be careful.

Now some of what Cricinfo left out

Jacobs last played for the West Indies in the second of the four-test series in England last summer. He injured one of his knees in that game and from the way the matter was handled by team Manager Tony Howard and coach Gus Logie, it is evident this left a bitter and long-lasting scar on the quiet Antiguan.

Jacobs told the Essential he lost all motivation to play for the West Indies because of the way he was treated in England after he got injured.

"No. I would not go back. The feelings are too deep to explain, but I am not motivated any longer. After my injury and knee surgery in England, I lost my motivation," he told Essential.

"I realised at that time that they didn"t care about me. Well, I knew before that because they were always doing things to frustrate me, but when I got injured, the manager (Tony Howard) said "Pack your Bags'.

"And if the doctor didn"t insist that I could not travel, that I needed a few days to heal before I could travel, they would have put me on the plane immediately. They don"t care for some of us," he added.

And then his petty nationalism rears its head...

When asked about the selection of the regional team for the current series against South Africa, Jacobs told Essential that West Indies selectors pay little or no regard to players from the Leeward Islands.

"I have seen clearly that in West Indies cricket, the system doesn"t cater to small islands. Cricketers from the small islands have to do too much to qualify. We don"t count to the selectors. They prefer to pick players who are not ready," Jacobs said.

"I believe that because Sir Viv (Richards), Andy (Roberts), Ambie (Curtly Ambrose) and Richie (Richardson) were so good and dominated West Indies cricket for so long, they think it's time for us to sit out.

"It's like the Leeward Islands cricketers had their time. So they prefer to pick guys who are not ready. I believe that most of the guys this time are not good enough," he added.

Plain utter rubbish. I notice he makes no mention of the Leeward Islanders who should be playing and why they are so much better and would deliver. Not a single name.

I also remember people like Keith Arthurton getting WAYYYYY too long a run in the side.

[Teatime FatCat]

Is it the press then, that are out to get him? No other player with his fantastic talent seems to be the but of so many rumours and press snippets about stuff from within the team.

You've got Ridley today, someone like Colin croft is always going on at him, even Holding's had a go. Then there's the alledged ousting of Courtney and Hooper as captains, the supposed brattish behaviour on tour in england and a rift with richie richardson. He just seems to be the victim of a lot of nasty reports and I wonder why?

Warnie cops a bit, but never really to do with rifts in the team. Shoaib does I suppose, but to me Brian's had the most. Is this an example of the 'petty nationalism' you mentioned.

ps - I'd give my left nut to see a game in the Windies, any game - what an atmosphere! My point about Antigua is that it just seems like a foregone conclusion as a game before a ball has been bowled.