The Ashes Build Up Thread

[Leafy Seadragon]

One or two things lost in cultural differences I suspect.

Originally Posted by Lemming

First you point out that the Aussies are professional (which of course they are), they are the most professional team in the world, then you say that some reasons they maybe losing are because "they have taken teams for granted or late nights boozing", obviously these reasons are not excuses for a professional team. So what do you think? Are they professional or not?

My comment was followed also by "or whatever". I obviously didn't think my wording through, but here (it may just be an Adelaide as opposed to Australian thing) the use of this phrase is dismissive and would suggest that the prior were just excuses or rubbish thrown up as explanation (sorry - I should have followed it with appropriate siley icon). I can summarise my post with "I think that they're professional, they'll identify the reasons that they are not winning, fix them and probably win".

I accept that you think that the Aussies have a blatant air of arrogance. I have heard Aussie, English, Kiwi, West Indian, Pakistani, Indian etc cricketers make dumb, sometimes arrogant statements. If not for an interview I saw of Nasser Hussain I would have thought him the greatest tool to walk the earth for several reasons, one personal. The glimpses that many of us catch of cricketers, particularly foreign touring ones, through small windows of opportunity, are usually through a media interested firstly in a story. Catch any cricketer under pressure three times in a row when he doesn't want to talk to anybody, yet has a mike/camera shoved in his face and that's enough for most people (myself included) to form an opinion.

The media invariably tends to focus on the outspoken statements and players, because they provide better stories. Are they reflective of the whole person, let alone the whole team. Never. Will people form judgements based on this limited exposure? Absolutely. Will they later change their opinions regardless? If you listen to psychologists, sometimes, but often not. Does the fact that the Aussies are generally a well balanced decent bunch of blokes (purely based on my personal exposure) who occasionally say and do dumb things mean that this is how they will be portrayed by the media and perceived by the world? Not a chance.

Originally Posted by Lemming

You lost to Bangladesh! The whipping boys of world cricket! What sort of twisted logic do you have? "So we lost twice to England! But's that's ok because we lost when we played the mighty Bangladesh!" I don't understand!

I started this post angry, thinking that your comments were far more arrogant and condescending than anything the Aussies might or might not have said. Again, I'll put this down to a cultural difference, possibly triggered by a misunderstanding of my original comments. I think however that you missed the point that I was trying to make (obviously another example of my great communication skills), that the problems with the Aussies are currently predominantly problems of their own making, possibly fundamental, but evidently there. Your paraphrasing was pointed, reflecting the interpretation that you put on it. I suggested that the current Aussie problems have nothing to do with how good any individual team was or wasn't, but more that the Aussie team was in a pretty poor place in terms of their cricket. I even acknowledged that once they'd dealt with the problem, and I believe that they will, then they still have to show that they can actually beat England, which I also think that they will do.

Yes, it was a poor performance. Should the Aussies be dissapointed by it? Absolutely. Embarrassed by it? Debatable. Its certainly not something they'll be proud of, but Australia played poorly, Bangladesh grabbed a chance and won. We all have bad days (even the Aussies) and should acknowledge other's achievements. The most embarrassing match result I've ever seen? Long, long way from it. A very poor result in an early match in a series that's hardly started and probably inconsequential in the overall scheme of things? probably. I could be wrong. Maybe I just don't get phased about individual results that easily.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Lemming

Trust me Leafy, losing to Bangladesh IS a huge problem for the Aussies, it is the most embarrassing match result I have ever seen.

Why is it a "huge problem"? It's not a problem at all: it's happened, there's nothing anyone can do about it now, and to be honest it's something to be treated in the same way that Hussain used to treat a ball that kept low and squirted off the toe of the bat: by putting it out of one's mind and focussing on what comes next.

Leafy Seadragon's point about the Bangladesh result is interesting though: he takes it as reassuring in that it says Australia have been way off the pace to date... not meeting their own standards... rather than (as might be guessed from some of the England reports) just overtaken by an England team that's just improved so much as to have made the "normal" Aussie standard insufficient.

Of course.. if you share Ernest's convinction that this Aussie side is full of folk who need to retire and whose best days are well and truly gone then there's little reassurance in the thought that the Aussies are not meeting their usual standards... but if you don't share Ernest's obsessions then the question becomes one of when, not if, normal service resumes.

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Leafy Seadragon

I think that they're professional, they'll identify the reasons that they are not winning, fix them and probably win

I agree! I hope they won't win of course, but I'm sure they will fix their problems.

I think we are along the right lines here. The Australian team is the best in the world. For years now they have caned everybody in sight, obvioulsy with a couple of exceptions. My point was just that they have lost four games in a row now, including against Somerset and Bangladesh. They surely didn't expect that when they began the tour. It must have an effect on their confidence. Not being able to defend 340 against Hampshire or 250ish against Bangladesh must bring doubt into their minds. They are in uncomfortable and unexperienced territory, I'm sure they will change it round and are working ultra-hard to do so, but it must have dented them! It must!

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Why is it a "huge problem"? [Australia losing to Bangladesh] It's not a problem at all

No it's not is it!

How can you say it is not a problem? Australia lost to Bangladesh! This link is what the Aussie press thinks (of course they don't see it as a problem do they?):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/4110538.stm

As well as what the media think. Does Ricky Ponting, the Australian captain, have worries about the Australian defeat by Bangladesh?

"This is probably one of the biggest upsets in the history of cricket and my worst defeat as captain." Ricky Ponting

"Bangladesh have got those runs pretty easy today and they controlled the game through the middle of their innings. That is a bit of a worry." Ricky Ponting

Now you may not find it worrying Rachael that Bangladesh beat Australia, or maybe you are playing devil's advocat? But need I say more to show how much of a worry it is?

They are still favourites for the Ashes, but they are obvioulsy worried about their start to the tour!

[Milo]

Cricinfo had an article on there about the remaining living members of the 1948 invincibles flying over for the Lords test this year. In it, Arthur Morris and Neil Harvey (I think it was these two) were quoted as saying they fully expected this touring side to emulate the 48 team and remain unbeaten throughout the entire tour.

Although this was always going to prove unlikely, to lose so many games in the first fortnight has to be seen as problematic. Gillespie is the real worry. He was pretty poor in NZ and really makes Australia strong when he performs. Kasprowicz, who also had a relatively poor tour of NZ is not there yet either. I think it is pretty bad for Australia when everyone starts talking so optimistically about Brett Lee's return to the team.

Excuses can be made for the bad start to the tour, history (1997) shows that Australia can bounce back......but let's not fool ourselves, some of you must be more woried now than they were two months ago.

[Lemming]

Spot on there Milo!

[Rachael]

I recently asked a semi-retired builder if he had a problem with re-tiling the museum roof down the road from us. His answer was simple. "No". I looked quizically at him, knowing full well that the stucture supporting the roof wasn't great. His explanation was simple: there's nothing we can do about it right now, so it's not a problem.

Australia had a problem beating Bangladesh. They have a problem: winning the Natwest Series. They will haveanother probelm: winning the Ashes. As each event passes so the "problems" pass!

It's the focus on results that is escalating this out of all sense of proportion: Australia have some concerns over Lee's fitness, some worries about Gillespie's bowling and some uncertainty about how to read Kasprowicz ODI performances... but let's get this straight: they would have had these same concerns had Australia won with those players performing as they did!

Any coach will tell you that it's performance, not results, that give cause for concern: in this case... with their two great ODI specialists not even having taken to the field so far.... and with the last game having only been lost, as Ponting put it, "by an inch" (the run out).. the results are not that big a deal.

[Lemming]

Not sure what a builder has to do with things!?!?

The fact is Rachael, you can come up with all the excuses in the world, all the "ifs", "buts" and "maybes" you like, until you are blue in the face, but there is no excuse for Australia losing to Bangladesh. They are the world champons and have lost four games in a row which they would never have predicted, results DO matter! When you are the best team in the world there is no room for "We lost, but we played well, so it's ok!!" No room at all! There are few positives Australia can take from their start of this tour, as a team I can guarentee you that they are not happy losing, however they have played.

[Leafy Seadragon]

There is no such thing as an excuse im sport IMO. There are reasons. Australia lost to Bangladesh because Bangladesh played better over the match. I'm making assumptions that nobody on this board has been a world champion for a consistent period of time, or is in the inner sanctums of the Aussie cricket team. On those grounds, statements like 'losing must affect their confidence' are mere conjecture.

Umlike a few Aussies, but similar to most I spoke to, I didn't expect Australia to clean up everyone at the beginning of their tour. I thought that they might struggle and possibly even drop some games (I didn't necessarily expect them to, but I've seen it before with Ashes tours, where they struggle to adapt and still some good when it matters). All I can say is that I and most of my mates (admittedly the extent of my connections) are honestly not worried. As I mentioned, Gillespie and Punter are the two I would be looking to come good from here. Other than that, I don't see too much to be worried about. That might change if the Aussies are one down in the Ashes. Even from there, unless they're being outclassed I would expect them to win, although I would by then be worried. Before several get started, I can see that this might be seen as arrogance. From my perspective, when a team has delivered for a decade, even after some hiccups, I've got a bit of faith. The question I would ask, in a similar position, why wouldn't anyone else?

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Leafy Seadragon

There is no such thing as an excuse im sport IMO. There are reasons. Australia lost to Bangladesh because Bangladesh played better over the match.

That is perfectly correct.

Originally Posted by Leafy Seadragon

I'm making assumptions that nobody on this board has been a world champion for a consistent period of time, or is in the inner sanctums of the Aussie cricket team. On those grounds, statements like 'losing must affect their confidence' are mere conjecture.

You don't have to be a world champion to pass comment on confidence of top players. There are plenty of top sportspeople who suffer from lack of confidence. Probably non (or definitely few) of us have played professional cricket, that doesn't mean everything we say on this forum is conjecture because we haven't played professionally. We only have to look at Australian newspaper reports to see how the losses have affected Australia, and listen to interviews to see how results have affected the players.

It happens in all form of life, if you are used to winning and then lose a few times when you have not been expected to, it will make you think. Now, whether the Aussies bounce back or continue to crumble is besides the point, it depends on their character. The point is they must be shocked to start the way they have. That may continue to have a negative effect on their performances in the future.