The Ashes Build Up Thread

[Leafy Seadragon]

Originally Posted by Lemming

You don't have to be a world champion to pass comment on confidence of top players. There are plenty of top sportspeople who suffer from lack of confidence

Yes, but how many of these have been world champions for extended periods? Lance Armstrong, Michael Schumacher and the list gets short after that, maybe Redmond and a couple of tennis players. Armstrong has had a couple of shocking stages and bounced right back. Schumacher had shocking races, ditto. Even Tiger Woods and a couple of others haven't shown this dominance over this period of time. The confidence of these players in their ability to do the job is not set in concrete, but its as close as you get. I think that shaking this confidence is extremely hard. Further, I think that the professionalism that these competitors show means that they expect to have the bad day/week/month, yet get back on and keep winning. Yes, one day it will end, but according to the knockers, this should have happened five years ago and every second week since. Lets actually wait until it does, before proclaiming it has.

Originally Posted by Lemming

Probably non (or definitely few) of us have played professional cricket, that doesn't mean everything we say on this forum is conjecture because we haven't played professionally.

Agree entirely, but that applies far more to technical aspects like shot selection, because we can break it down and analyse it repeatedly and compare it with previous examples, not to mention expert analysis from players and coaches. As for mental aspects, who of the current commentators even has played or analysed at the level of the Aussies? I think this is one area (inside 20 people's heads - the Aussie team and management) that is sheer conjecture from most of us (myself included). Only some seem to accept this. There's nothing wrong with conjecture on this point, but the language used in doing this has been pretty dismissive of other people's equally valid conjectures in several posts

Originally Posted by Lemming

We only have to look at Australian newspaper reports to see how the losses have affected Australia

These are all of the newspapers? or just the newspapers that go with sensationalist headlines? the same newspapers perhaps that touted a few years ago that the Ashes should be downgraded to a best of three? that after one Aussie victory will claim that sanity is restored and that the Aussies will now obviously win the Ashes 5-0 and the Nobel Peace Prize? Yes there's some knee-jerk responses, but that's no different to other headlines. There has also been considerable review by some decent analysts that pinpoint issues and responses expected, highlighting that the tour is early, its happened before, but also keeping some perspective that the issues are not trivial

Originally Posted by Lemming

listen to interviews to see how results have affected the players

To a degree true, but this as mentioned in an earlier post, reflects only a small part of the picture. How many of the team currently playing is this based on? Ponting? He's captain and has to paint a picture (eg. Symonds suspension = flu). If the interview was a collection of players providing an in-depth assessment, then I'll happily go along with the assertion that it shows the player's response. If its a combination of sound bites and a handful of questions to a couple of players, it depends on whether they were following the party line, caught unawares or actually providing a representative response.

Originally Posted by Lemming

It happens in all form of life, if you are used to winning and then lose a few times when you have not been expected to, it will make you think

Agreed. We might just disagree a teensy bit on what it might make them think. Consistent with my earlier comment, we'd probably both be wrong. Shane Warne thought bubble: "Where's the bloody baked beans? I put 'em down here somewhere..."

Originally Posted by Lemming

Now, whether the Aussies bounce back or continue to crumble is besides the point, it depends on their character. The point is they must be shocked to start the way they have. That may continue to have a negative effect on their performances in the future.

I'm happy to accept that it may have a negative effect. Might also be the prod to gel the team into startling performances. What I disagree with is earlier statements that it must do this or it will do that or that it is a problem. There's another definitive statement in the same para that you emphasise the word "may". I think its highly likely that they're surprised they're playing so poorly. Whether they're shocked, embarrassed, angry, or just disappointed and determined to do better, I'll let the media and others project on to them whatever emotional responses they see fit.

[Lemming]

The thing with all great world champions (probably including Australia) is that their character is such that they can lose, hate it and work harder than ever to bounce back. But i'm not arguing that because I reckon the Aussies probably will bounce back. All I'm saying is that the Aussies won't be taking continual loss with a pinch of salt, their camp will be demoralised which is probalby better for England - I feel - leading up to the Ashes, better than if the Aussies were caning everybody.

Schmacher is one of the top sportmen in the world, he will work harder and harder to win and beat the rest. That does not mean he can't get rattled. For example, in the last race of the 97 season, at Spain, Villeneuve tried to pass Schmacher who then attempted to take Villeneuve of the track. Schmacher is a born winner, he hates losing, you can see it in his face.

Australia are winners (when it comes to cricket), they hate losing! It get's to them, they are in difficult unchartered territory. I don't think England are favourites for the Ashes this year, but I'm not sure a whitewash is on the cards either now.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Lemming

Australia are winners (when it comes to cricket), they hate losing! It get's to them

The first bit of that statement is fact.. but you then slide into speculation (isn't "hate putting it a bit strongly?) and then rank conjecture (of a sort that not even the team coach might feel qualified to give on the basis that they've damn little experience of it anyway. To cap it all you talk as if there is no variation from player to player: does it get to each and every player? Does it get to them equally? Do you know for a fact that none of them capable of rising above such smallmindedness?

[Lemming]

Alright then Rachael, you win!

Australia love losing! They could never have dreamt of a better start to an Ashes tour than this one. Losing to Bangladesh is the peak of many of the Aussies' careers, and losing the Ashes will give them an added bonus later this summer.

Now which do you think is true? Do they like losing? Or do they not like losing? I'm not sure I'd have you in my team if you didn't hate losing.

To summarise my point (an obvious point in my opinion): Australia didn't expect to start this tour as they have. They would have taken any other results other than those they have had. I'm sure that is not conjecture. If you think it's conjecture to assume the Aussies prefer to win than lose, then that is "smallmindedness"!

[Cliff-UK]

Hello ladies, I can't see there being two draws in the Ashes series so with respect, I don't know about 2-1. I do think England are good enough to win - well, I hope they are. But can the English weather and the English team support a 3-2 victory margin. Dunno. So, it could be two-two and those uppety Aussies get to take the metaphorical spoils again. So my prediction is...three one. To us - of course. Every empire falls some time.

Our batsmen will be okay, I reckon. Everyone except maybe Trescothick. I think the top order were over confident on Saturday. Strrange but true. And when they reined it in, the Aussies lost heart, ideas and fight and could not break the lower order down. Their bowling lacks firepower. Lee may have a good test series if picked - but he has under performed in tests in the past, I believe. Of course, Warne is past his best but is still brilliant and McGrath is the same bracket. Gillespie and Kasproviczzzczc wouldn't get into the England team on present form.

For England's part, their pace attack is varied. Hoggard will come back and he's been taking as many wickets as Harmison over the past year or so.

Be gentle with me - this is my first chat string thread thing forum in the history ofthe world ever.

[Collyisamackem]

Welcome Cliff, nice to see another Durham fan on here (let's not talk about the Warwicks game hey?!).


Just a quick note to say I am getting so excited ahead of Thursday, I can't wait.

[greg]

I know they say don't wish your life away but i wish it was Thursday now.

[Trescothick]

Originally Posted by greg

I know they say don't wish your life away but i wish it was Thursday now.

Same... It will be an amazing cricketing game... I've been dreaming about parts of the matches and various scorecards... I think i'm going crazy.. Roll on Thursday!!

[Milo]

I see we now have 18-14 in favour to Australia on this thread. I find this pretty amazing really. I've said it all along that I don't really give England a hope in hell of winning this series. Flintoff talks about the team having won over the last 18 months, and it is this pedigree that gives them real hope for the Ashes. Correct me if I'm wrong Freddy, but, but this team, that will go out on Thursday, has never won a test match. In fact, without Thorpe's steadying (influential?) hand in Bridgetown, Port of Spain, Trent Bridge and Manchester we would have quite possibly lost all four of those tests (as well as some others - Centurion, Durban).

McGrath talks about hearing 'Ashes coming home' chants from the excited English fans before the two previous tours he has made to England. In 1997, a 3-0 victory in the one day series and a blistering morning bowling performance at Edgbaston gave England the feel that it was our time. The Australians had a Taylor in charge who couldn't score a run for toffee, Bevan was exposed, Blewett not that impressive at 3 and a bowling line up consisting of raw McGrath and Gillespie (and Warne was said to be past it). Surely it was our turn!!! McGrath's 8-38 at Lords shut us up. We'll have to wait another few years. In 2001, Thorpe, White, Giles, Gough, Atherton and Hussain (captain) had just led up to consecutive wins in Pakistan and Sri Lanka - this after finally beating the WIndies with Ambrose and Walsh at the helm. Next stop the Aussies. A comprehensive win in the first test of the summer against Pakistan added to the expectation. Australia had just lost in India; put them under pressure and they will burst. However, a final day collapse (with the no-ball assistance of Mr Shepherd) saw England fall to pieces against Pakistan and only draw that series. Never mind, Vaughan got a ton and Thorpe continued to top score for England (it was in fact five England innings on the trot that he top scored, if I am not mistaken - a post war record). Come the Ashes, Vaughan was injured, Hussain was missing and Thorpe had pulled a hamstring that made him miss six weeks. He came in for one test but broke a hand. He would miss four tests. Gough bowled pony, and Caddick looked like someone who was afraid to tackle the Aussies. Butcher, England's best bat was not even in the winter test series....but he couldn't catch Gilchrist for love not money. Warne (who was past it) took 30 odd English wickets and we were once again disappointed. The bottom shot was that England lost the most one sided Ashes series since 1948.

Now we are hearing the same stuff. No wonder McGrath dismisses all the hype as typical nonsense. Are England any better now than they were in 2001? Would they be able to go to Sri Lanka and Pakistan and win???? McGrath says 5-0.

I believe could well be right.

[Kirsty Harris]

It's surprising no one has gone for the draw - I think that is a possiblity you know, alhoug I am still holding tru to my 2 - 1 England win.

Milo - even the best Aussie sides against the worst English side in recent years haven't managed to win 5 - 0!! There is no way that England are not going to be way more competative than they have been for 20 years, win lose or draw!

And yes, England are a better side than 2001, for one thing they are a young team on the up, not an oldish team at their pinacle. I think England will do very nicely thankyou in Pakistain this winter.