2nd Test: England v Bangladesh: Chester-le-Street 2-6 June

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Right now I don't think countries like England, SA, Pakistan and NZ have any business whatsoever complaining about mismatches against Bangladesh: they need to consistently (over several years not, as England have so far managed, a season) show they deserve a place at the top table for themselves before they question anyone else's credibility.

I agree with this part of your post, in so much that a side needs to maintain improvement, or in Australia's case the impossible task of keeping up their high class.

A division plan would not work, for the simple reason the team relegated to the division with Bangladesh and Zimbabwe will come back up at first attempt, and if not, what would be the point in a dicision system anyway.

I see no point at all to the first part of your post, maybe it was well over my head.

[Ninjaman]

All what you say is well and good, flanflinger, but where have you seen me argue that Bangladesh deserved Test status or should not have it suspended??

My point is, and let me repeat it, that whilst they are playing Test cricket, then those teams chosen to play them should turn up, bowl them out cheaply and score heavily and win.

And stop the continual whining that follows the announcement of a Bangladesh tour.

The same way all the whining that erupts when England or Australia have to play Zimbabwe.

This is a side issue as to how anyone can fail to understand that you can only thrive at a higher level if you first play at the higher level.

If moves are made to drop them from Tests and down to ICC Associate level then do so because you think Bangladesh's presence devlaues Test standard.

But don't try to convince anyone that the 2nd tier will ever be able to produce teams good enough for Tests, that occurs at Test level.

If the goal is to make Bangladesh a decent Test team, then they will have to be playing other Test teams.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

I think the bowling is there big problem - they just cant trouble test standard players. While the batting isnt much better they seem hell bent on getting themselves out, and when (rarely) they show a bit of application they dont seem as bad.

Having said that, from cricinfo has said there seems to be a few top notch deliveries coming down rather than ill advised hook and pull shots.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

If the goal is to make Bangladesh a decent Test team, then they will have to be playing other Test teams.

Whereas I feel that it isn't working... and it won't work and the whole process needs to be re-thought.

I would love to see Bangladesh, Kenya, Holland, Scotland all competing at Test level. But I do not feel that chucking them in at taht level and hoping they swim, is the answer. But regular games at lower levels and taking time out for their players to play at First Class Level may be. I could be wrong - but at the moment the current method definatly isn't working and shows no signs of working...

[Rachael]

How do you feel about the WI and Pakistan having Test status Flanflinger? I'm all with you in terms of wanting to see teams compete.. but can those once respectable Test nations realy claim to do that any more? Where do you draw the line(s)? Was England really worthy of Test status in the ropey period following the loss of Gough, Caddick and White? Does the current NZ side deserve Test status following the humiliating mis-match that was their last contest with Australia? Does any side that has to pick guys like Amla, de Bruyn, Tsolekile and Steyn deserve to be given a contest against Ponting's crew?

I'm not suggesting any of these sides have been in any way shape or form as bad as Bangladesh.. but once you stary making judgements on Bangladesh.. where do you stop? IF the standard is that set by the Aussies over the last 5 years then who HAS been worthy?

My ideal would not be a simple "second division" but a proper league structure with 4-5 divisions: divisions of 3 teams to play 5 tests at home and away over 2 years with one up and one down at the end of those 2 year cycles. England and India might get first shot at Austalia between now and 2008... with SA, SL and NZ competing for the chance to replace one for the period to 2010. Pak, WI and Zim could then constitute a 3rd division ahead of Ken, Bang and Holland.. with anyone else that takes an interest engaging in a play-off to get onto the bottom of the ladder.

Can't see it happening but it woould certainly sort out mismatches :-)

[Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Rachael

How do you feel about the WI and Pakistan having Test status Flanflinger? I'm all with you in terms of wanting to see teams compete.. but can those once respectable Test nations realy claim to do that any more? Where do you draw the line(s)? Was England really worthy of Test status in the ropey period following the loss of Gough, Caddick and White? Does the current NZ side deserve Test status following the humiliating mis-match that was their last contest with Australia? Does any side that has to pick guys like Amla, de Bruyn, Tsolekile and Steyn deserve to be given a contest against Ponting's crew?

I'm not suggesting any of these sides have been in any way shape or form as bad as Bangladesh.. but once you stary making judgements on Bangladesh.. where do you stop? IF the standard is that set by the Aussies over the last 5 years then who HAS been worthy?

The line has to be drawn somewhere, Rachael. Otherwise you'd have to let every country in the world have test status. West Indies and Pakistan are still capable of beating the best on their day. Look at what the Windies did in scoring 400+ to beat Australia. And although they fared badly against England, many of the games were in the balance at halfway. Bangladesh are struggling to make games last three days against everyone but Zimbabwe. That's why people are questioning their test status. does anyone give them a chance of beating England this week? No. You certainly couldn't be that certain of us beating WI or PAK.

I actually think Bangladesh should be left in, but given a more supported experience of test cricket through scheduling and other help. Giving them two tests early in an English summer will only tell tem that they can't play on green wickets. Something they probably knew before they arrived.

[Rachael]

The green wicket early summer thing really sucks, doesn't it? The ECB could have promoted a far better series had they chosen two slow, true, spinner-friendly wickets with low bounce and scheduled play for August into September.

As a bonus... the Aussies might have been facing early season conditions they don't get at home instead of late summer conditions they find more familiar!

[Andy Mellon]

There are probably many answers to the question. To be honest, I think Bangladesh do have a future in the game and do need to be nurtured, but I also agree with Flanflinger that constant pastings will not help them.

So, how's about a new level of test nation, "associate test nation" you would only have Bangladesh and Zimbabwe in this rank, but it would mean that rather than playing all nations home and away over 4 years, you'd increase that timetable to 8 years. The space in their schedules could then be used to incorporate 5 day matches versus Kenya and Namibia (the best associate teams) which would be given 1st class status and also allow them to play 4 day games versus Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Holland etc. This would give them confidence in playing the associate teams and hopefully winning but also still allow them to get the experience of playing the big boys. Another positive knock on effect would be the development of Kenya and Namibia with regular competition against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

[Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Rachael

The green wicket early summer thing really sucks, doesn't it? The ECB could have promoted a far better series had they chosen two slow, true, spinner-friendly wickets with low bounce and scheduled play for August into September.

As a bonus... the Aussies might have been facing early season conditions they don't get at home instead of late summer conditions they find more familiar!

That is exactly the point I made in another thread last week. Bangladesh at the Oval in August would be a different team to Bangladesh at Lords in May. Give the poor buggers a chance at respectability.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

How do you feel about the WI and Pakistan having Test status Flanflinger? I'm all with you in terms of wanting to see teams compete.. but can those once respectable Test nations realy claim to do that any more? Where do you draw the line(s)?

Thinks this is slightly different as Bangaladesh are so consistently poor... West Indies and Pakistan are not great at the moment but still have the ability to win Test's even if that is inconsitent.

I just feel that this system of throwing them in and hoping is not working and the ICC need to think seriously about how they get them up to the required standard...