The Ashes First Test Lords Sunday 24th July..Day 4.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Rachael

England performed at about the highest level they've achieved in many, many years.... and it wasn't good enough. End of story (and no need for criticism).

I cannot believe that anyone's upset about this England performance. It's been no worse than any England performance over the past 12-18 months... and few were complaining then: why complain now?

I don't agree with the opening statement, Rachael. Why complain?

1. Losing 5 wickets for 21 runs at the beginning of the first innings.
2. Losing 5 wickets for 24 runs at the end of the second innings.
3. Dropping countless catches.

Batting basically was poor; fielding basically was poor. That's enough for them to get working on in the next ten days, I think.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Well.. I'd say the other main requirement [of a keeper] is getting the close fielders in close enough... and on that count [G O Jones] also failed.

Isn't this more of the job of the captain and bowler? I couldn't see what was happening, of course, but if the field placings are wrong I would normally be looking to the captain to take that particular rap rather than the wicketkeeper.

[Notts Exile]

The wicketkeeper decides how far back the slips field. They are in the best position to judge this. How is a bowler or a captain (at cover) supposed to see this?

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

And what sort of shot was that from Jones in the second innings ????? I hope big dunc and vaughan used a similar sort of phrase when he got back to the paviliion. ANother I dont watch the weather forcast that much, but SURELY someone in ECB high command does, and to that end what was the point of GIles ?? I'd have had collingwood in....yes I know its a bit kneejerk but hey.

Speaking of kneejerk, I know that "from is tempory, class in permenant" but we've got a lot of out of form players out there, notably Hoggard. Is it worth sticking Tremlett or anyone with a bit of form and rythem in ?? JOnes seems more a "kitchen sink" type of bowler (ie he'll try all sorts) and he'll concede runs, but Hoggys a swing/new ball bowler and he had no joy at all. Strauss worked hard in the second innings before giving his wicket away, tresco concentrated hugely in the second innings, and did well before he was undone by warne, something I hope he takes to the rest of the series.

[Collyisamackem]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Well.. I'd say the other main requirement is getting the close fielders in close enough... and on that count he also failed: the slips set themselves from the 'keeper.. and Jones was WAY too far back. I don't know if it was panic about conceding byes or worry about dropping catches that prompted him to retreat so far.. but he was so far back he never even stood a chance at one or two of the more serious leg side wides!

Gilchrist was at least 2-3 yards closer.. and even for the Aussies there were edges not carrying.

He was closer for McGrath because he's 10 mph slower than Harmison and Flintoff. He was further back for Lee.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Notts Exile

The wicketkeeper decides how far back the slips field. They are in the best position to judge this. How is a bowler or a captain (at cover) supposed to see this?

Fair enough, Notts: I'll bow to you and Rachael on that one. Never kept wicket, never captained a side, never bowled a legal one. So I'm certainly not the expert!

[Seamer]

If i were England i would forget about that test and move on.
Yes they dropped catches but so what - the main offenders are usually very reliable so all you can do is put it down to a bad game and move on.
They endured batting collapses but the conditions were difficult and the conditions in the next match will no doubt be more condusive to batting.
That wicket was not a Giles wicket so you cannot question his ability based on that match - if anything, it was a selection error but i don't think anyone had any idea the wicket was going to play like that.
Basically, England have been playing good cricket for 18 months. To make any changes based on one bad game will unnecesarily upset team harmony and erode confidence.
I would stick with the same team without changing batting lineups ect and have a little faith in the guys that have taken England to no2 in the world. To do otherwise would be madness.

[dagonz]

Just a quick add on to this field placement debate. Take a look at gilchrist during field placements who will often stand at the stumps to confirm the positioning from the batsmens perspective. One of the reasons the fielders are often in the right spot at the right time

[Seamer]

That wicket was notable for the inconsistant bounce. Some kicked and some kept low. That makes thing very difficult for the wicket keeper and cordon. Your safer bet is to stand a little closer, but then you run the chance of dropping hot ones like Petersen did off Ponting in the first innings.
On wickets like that, it comes down to luck and it is harsh to criticise keeprs or slips on where they stand.

[Aussie-Yank]

Originally Posted by Seamer

They endured batting collapses but the conditions were difficult and the conditions in the next match will no doubt be more condusive to batting.

Yes, but if they had that much trouble keeping Australia down to a winnable total on that wicket, how are they going to stop Australia scoring even more runs on a good wicket - that would be the concern.

Originally Posted by Seamer

That wicket was not a Giles wicket so you cannot question his ability based on that match - if anything, it was a selection error but i don't think anyone had any idea the wicket was going to play like that.

If you look at the history of wickets taken by spinners at lord's you would have known that this was not Giles ground to play on. This is the selectors job and they failed badly in this.

Originally Posted by Seamer

Basically, England have been playing good cricket for 18 months. To make any changes based on one bad game will unnecesarily upset team harmony and erode confidence.
I would stick with the same team without changing batting lineups ect and have a little faith in the guys that have taken England to no2 in the world. To do otherwise would be madness.

Couldn't agree with you more - except if the pitch is not a spinners pitch, then Giles should be dropped. Australia has played with its bowling lineup depending on what pitch they are playing on and select as needed. This theory of a balanced attack is flawed with Giles.