Tourists throw a wobbly over 'chuckers'

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Occasional Fan

If, as is suggested, Stephen Harmison roughed up three Aussies like this, then Michael Vaughan ought to be telling him to cool it before he gets reported for a level two Code of Conduct violation.

No-one's been hit by the fielders throwing the ball back to the keeper. They were injured when Steve was bowling to them.

[Beny]

I'm having some trouble understanding this. From the newspaper article, the problem seems to be that England's fielders are returning the ball to the middle in an unnecessarily aggressive manner. The complaint is not against batsmen being hit by bowlers, but against them being hit by fielders (who happen to be bowlers). Is that right? If so, then I take no offence at the "chucking" term - it's only offensive if used against a bowler who is bowling (legally) - but it does muddy the waters a bit and the sub-editor who wrote the headline should talk to his cricket correspondent before writing another one.

No OF, The issue is on a few fronts...

1. When batsmen get hit the opposition players dont even give a concerned look to them. It's common courtasy to say simply, 'you right mate?' in their direction.

2. English bowlers throwing the ball back at the stumps when it has been hit back at them... It was purely for intimidation.

3. General poor 'spirit of cricket' shown by English players.

So Brett Lee bowling beamers cosistantly is fair is it?

I think we've already covered that it's not on purpouse... and as AY says, there has been three all up, one against England and no wickets have come from them.

It is a game, yes! But part of the game is to knock the opposing captain's head off with a legal ball. If Ponting wants some sympathy next time he'd better duck the short ones and not attempt a poorly timed stroke.

OK Lemming but I would have asked the guy needing 8 stitches in his cheek, weather he was ok. Common courtousy. When the Aussies hit some of the Indian players recently, the first thing the slips cordon did was walk past the batsmen and check he was ok.

Brett Lee doesn't let up with his short balls and so he shouldn't.

You'll notice that he looked preety angry this test and he never normaly does. In the ODI's, and even in the 1st innings when he hit somebody he walked by and gave either a quick 'you ok', or a simmiler hand gesture. In the 2nd innings he looked really annoyed at how the pommies were acting.

You love it when you dish it out, but when its back at you... you complain

As Seamer said, we play nice... We respect the opposition.
ever since the team got over there they have been given a cold reception by the English team. So much so that Ponting thought he needed to give Vaughn a talking to when he rudely threw the ball harder than was nessecery towards Shane Warne.

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Beny

...OK Lemming, but I would have asked the guy needing 8 stitches in his cheek, whether he was ok. Common courtousy...

I agree, I didn't see whether the English players checked if Ponting was ok or not. Didn't Vaughan ask if they were ok on behalf of the England team during an interval. I think he could have avoided the stiches if his helmet was not moving around so much on impact, but that's another matter.

Originally Posted by Beny

...When the Aussies hit some of the Indian players recently, the first thing the slips cordon did was walk past the batsmen and check he was ok...

Well the Australian team is full of heros isn't it? They never do anything nasty on the cricket field do they?

Originally Posted by Beny

...You'll notice that he looked pretty angry this test and he never normaly does. In the ODI's, and even in the 1st innings when he hit somebody he walked by and gave either a quick 'you ok', or a simmiler hand gesture...

What I'm interested to know is why he was imtimidating Giles more than any other batsman. There was nothing wrong with what he was doing, I'm a fan of tough, hard-nosed cricket. I just don't know why he had it in for Giles more than most others.

[Beny]

I agree, I didn't see whether the English players checked if Ponting was ok or not.

No they didd'nt according to Langer...

Well the Australian team is full of heros isn't it? They never do anything nasty on the cricket field do they?

But mummy... He did it too!!!

I have never seen an incident which has worried me. Do you have any in mind?

What I'm interested to know is why he was imtimidating Giles more than any other batsman.

Probebly because he is a tail-ender and that is a way to get them out. Giles ended up troding on his stumpts in the end. In anycase I never saw him get seriously hit.

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Beny

No they didd'nt according to Langer...

Oh well, it must be true if Langer's said it!

Originally Posted by Beny

...But mummy... He did it too!!!...

Hey, it ain't me moaning about players' conduct. I've not seen anything in the first test match that I'm unhappy with!

Hmmmmm! Well, except maybe the Aussies claiming a false catch to remove Strauss, disrespecting the umpire with loads of over-the-top lbw appeals and the slip cordon unneccesarily going up for a catch obviously off Strauss' shoulder.

No seriously, I'm a bit peeved with the catch where the ball touched the floor before Lee had control over his body, I'm not sure Lee is to blame for that though. Other than that I never really saw anything that I'm personally worried shouldn't be in the game, from either side! But when it comes to playing intimidating cricket, I'm quite a liberal guy, I like to watch tough cricket and would prefer England to give it some aggression and lose rather than play like angels and lose.

[Beny]

Hmmmmm! Well, except maybe the Aussies claiming a false catch to remove Strauss,

From what I understand the debate is over weather half the ball touched the ground after Lee had caught it. That is not against the rules. So long as Lee still had control of the ball and it had not touched the ground before Lee caught it then there is nothing to worry about. Even Botham said it was a fair catch... Much less contentios than half of the catches that England claimed in the ODI's.

Oh well, it must be true if Langer's said it!

I imagine it would be as he is somebody who would know... Unless you got your information from somebody else who plays in the Aussie team.

I like to watch tough cricket and would prefer England to give it some aggression and lose rather than play like angels and lose.

You can be agressive and still maintain respect for the opposition players. I love a good bouncer too. Heck, I bowl plenty myself.

disrespecting the umpire with loads of over-the-top lbw appeals

As I remember there we're 4 or 5. two were out as proven by technology and the others were all very close.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Beny

From what I understand the debate is over weather half the ball touched the ground after Lee had caught it. That is not against the rules. So long as Lee still had control of the ball and it had not touched the ground before Lee caught it then there is nothing to worry about. Even Botham said it was a fair catch... Much less contentios than half of the catches that England claimed in the ODI's.

How does that work then? Half the ball???

Certainly you're right that the ball can touch the ground after it has been caught, but the question is when it has been caught. The act of completing a catch is described fully in the Laws, and it requires both the movement of the ball and the movement of the player to be under control (not a direct quote, but you'll find it there if you look for it: my internet connection is frustratingly slow at the moment and I have given up trying to dig it up). The debate, as I understand it, is whether Lee had his own movement under control, and there is at least some argument that if he was still in motion sliding along the ground, then he didn't. I'm not going to bleat about whether this specific one was a catch or not, as I didn't see it - but you've only got half the point, Beny, when you say "So long as Lee had control of the ball ...". He has to have control of his own movement as well, or it's not a fair catch as provided by the Laws.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Beny

No OF, The issue is on a few fronts...

1. When batsmen get hit the opposition players dont even give a concerned look to them. It's common courtasy to say simply, 'you right mate?' in their direction.

2. English bowlers throwing the ball back at the stumps when it has been hit back at them... It was purely for intimidation.

3. General poor 'spirit of cricket' shown by English players.

Thanks for clarifying. Makes me a bit less sympathetic to the Aussies' case, to be honest. They're professional sportsmen playing at the top of their profession (so they keep telling us). Get on with it! I agree that there are issues of courtesy involved, but they often go out of the window in high pressure situations - even among stressed chartered accountants!! And point 2 - purely for intimidation? No, mate. At least partly in the hope of running the bloke out, I would hope - that's part of the bowler's job and if he's not trying to do it or hoping to do it, then I'd like to understand why not. Point 3: get over it! The Spirit comes in large measure in the bar after the game, and Ponting himself admits that there has been a lot more fraternisation among the teams than there was when Hussain was captaining England.

Aussie captain seems to be softening up the Aussie public for the sad news that he'll have for them when he goes home and leaves The Ashes with us!

[Beny]

And point 2 - purely for intimidation? No, mate

That is what has been happening OF. Bowlers throwing the ball back when the batsmen is clearly in their crease.

Point is OF, I've never seen this sort of thing from any other team in the world...

[Occasional Fan]

You can see it, Beny, and I can't. I guess the truth is that I, for reasons related to national bias, don't want to believe that it is purely intimidatory. In any event, the Aussies can either let this get to them - which I really don't expect: they're a tough bunch of blokes overall - or they can just accept that the game is being played harder this year than it was last time they were here, get on with it and still have half a chance of winning the series.

Mind games being played out in the newspapers are not going to affect the England team this time around - Vaughan might ask Harmison to cool it a bit, but if he does it will be in the dressing room and not where anyone can see or hear it happen and try to make capital from it.