3rd Ashes Test: Old Trafford, 11-15 August: Day Four

[Occasional Fan]

The game is still very much alive as we head into the fourth day at Old Trafford. Saturday was Australia's day, with Shane Warne and Jason Gillespie both batting through the fourteen overs which were managed between the rain storms. England, on the other hand, will be frustrated at the failure of their bowlers to make a mark, and especially at the failure of Geraint Jones to take a regulation catch and a straightforward stumping chance, either of which would have seen off the dangerous Shane Warne. We start the fourth day with Australia on 264-7 (Warne 78 not out, Gillespie 7 not out) in reply to England's first innings score of 444.

Play starts at 1030BST and will be extended by one hour, weather permitting, to make up for Saturday's lost time.

Please place your comments on the fourth day's play in this thread.

The weather forecast from the BBC is cloudy with sunny intervals, top temperature around 19C, which is pretty much as forecast for the first two days of the match. Hopefully, therefore, we might get a full day's play.

[Sean Beynon]

If England don't go on to win this game, serious questions are going to be raised about Geraint Jones. It's worth remembering that there was furious debate between the Read/Jones camp when England were seeping aside all before them and, crucially, when Jones was batting pretty well.

Generally, these things go round in circles, due to the fact that there is a quite legitimate debate on whether a specialist keeper is more important than a Test class batsman that can keep.

In my opinion, any argument to persist with Jones was paper thin before this Test, and is shot away now. I do fear though, that a mix of admirable loyalty and sheer bloody-mindedness from Flecther and Vaughan will ensure Jones' place is safe. I hope it doesn't cost England the Ashes, but it just might.

Jones' mistakes in this series have been at vital times. True, at Lord's his two drops did not significantly increase England's target, but they did remove any momentum England may have had after the run out of Lee. The same was the case today - in two mini sessions England would have been boosted by a wicket. The stumping may not have been the easiest, but the catch WOULD have been taken by club keepers.

He batted well on Friday, but basically missed a straight one on a flat pitch when he was set. A 'Test-class batsman' which, if we are to believe the hype, Jones is capable of being, should not do that too often. He's a decent batsman but, over a year's Test cricket, mainly at home, he has not shown that he commands a place in the side. His keeping is substantially worse than Stewart's, yet Stewart was put under pressure from Russell for much of his career. Stewart's batting was so strong that he probably deserved to hold it off, but Jones simply isn't showing it with bat or gloves.

The argument for Prior seems pretty spurious - this is a guy who isn't necessarily first choice keeper for his county. England have an attack which is creating a wealth of chances, which need to be taken. Read deserves another shot - if, given a year, his batting average is still 15, then England will have to rethink. But dropped catches and missed stumpings demoralise a bowling attack, and Read is pretty much certain to grab anything that comes his way.

Any thoughts?

[Cricket Girl]

Originally Posted by Sean Beynon

Jones' mistakes in this series have been at vital times. True, at Lord's his two drops did not significantly increase England's target, but they did remove any momentum England may have had after the run out of Lee. The same was the case today - in two mini sessions England would have been boosted by a wicket. The stumping may not have been the easiest, but the catch WOULD have been taken by club keepers.

Those drops at Lords didn't really affect the momentum - by the time he dropped them the target was already over 400, I think, and it was a long time after the Lee run-out.

Having said that today's drop by Jones off Flintoff was extremely bad - the worst catch I've seen him drop. The stumping was difficult but should have been taken. I think Jones should play for the rest of the series, partly because Read is injured and partly because I don't believe changes to the team now would be beneficial. Also, if you consider Jones's overall record this summer, it's very good - he was pretty much flawless in the one-dayers, which is what makes this current setback so frustrating. Anyway, I say play him to the end of the series and review it then. With a tour of the subcontinent coming up we are going to need a good keeper on turning pitches.

[vvvrulz]

Yep I agree, no need to jump the gun just yet. However if it does persist, much like it did for Parthiv Patel, then they should look to someone else, but only if it really persists.

[Paoli]

Far out, I haven't posted in ages...Three very good days of cricket and I think it has been shown that Glenn McGrath has been rushed back far, far too early; I think we should've waited a little while, at least until the fourth test. For England to win, they must take the remaining wickets within the first ten overs of this morning and bat until perhaps 10-12 overs from stumps. Good to see the lesser likes in Jonesy and Ash Giles taking their fair share of wickets.

A few random thoughts:

Gillespie: Lost his nip and I think 1-111 off 17 overs says it all. Not moving the ball and bowling far too straight for my liking. Put up or shut up time for him now; perhaps Shaun Tait's debut will come soon?

Michael Vaughan: His first 100 runs had a few slices of luck, and to be fair to the bloke, he hasn't had much of that in this series. But, what really showed that he was in form were his final 66 runs; where he smashed the Aussies to all parts and showed shades of 02-03.

Matt Hayden: Unlucky decision, yes, showing glimpses of form, yes, but on the whole, quite an ordinary day. He's our worst batsman at the moment and I think it is telling that Shane Warne has scored more runs than him; or for that matter, most other Aussie batsmen.

Brett Lee: Our only real shining light; showed that we have wasted our time in these past 18 months and in reality that he should've played all those Tests. Not many of the English batsmen can handle his pace, and has a much better slower ball than he used to. The ball to Andrew Strauss was mesmerising.

Geraint Jones: Matty Prior, get your gloves ready. Although his batting was resilient and helpful, his keeping was woeful, in particular that missed stumping. For Prior to play, that would mean a direct swap. However, if Read were to play, that'd mean that Matty Hoggard would be dropped, Paul Collingwood to come in and bat at seven.

Shane Warne: Didn't have an awesome time with the ball, but still picked up four wickets. His batting has been without a doubt the shining light in the Australian innings. If you took away perhaps 150-200 of his wickets, and he used that on his batting potential, Warney could've become one of the greatest allrounders of the modern era; then again, who'd want him to lose 200 fine wickets?

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

For England to win, they must take the remaining wickets within the first ten overs of this morning and bat until perhaps 10-12 overs from stumps.

I think that is exactly right, Paoli. England have the capability to do it, but they really have to go out there and deliver what their ability promises this morning. The weather forecast is much better today, so hopefully we will have the time to take the game to a result (I know a draw is a result, but I do hate to see rain-affected games peter out into draws as this one threatens to).

Overnight, Duncan Fletcher has backed Geraint Jones - see this BBC report - but really this is no more than you would expect from a coach during the game. Another error like the two we saw yesterday afternoon and, as Jonathan Agnew has it in his column - link here - Jones must be testing the loyalty of the selectors to the limit. But we should probably leave that discussion until the match is over.

In the meantime, what outrageous headline do I see on the BBC this morning: "Rain and Warne ruin England's day". This is not on, and is something I have gently knocked Beny for a couple of times over the last couple of days. Warne did his job, and is doing it very well. The headline, if the sub sticks with that construction, surely should be "Rain and Jones ruin England's day". But, as I said, we should probably leave that discussion until the match is over!

Here's hoping for a great and full day's cricket.

[John]

What time does play start?

[Occasional Fan]

Weather permitting, start of play is at 1030BST. Play can continue to 1900BST today (that's a scheduled close at 1830 plus 30 minutes allowed overtime if the over rate is slow). Minimum overs today should be 105. Same tomorrow if needed.

[Six & Out]

Why isn't play starting at 10am? The ICC rules on making up time for lost overs is bonkers. Why they didn't play to 7pm last night I have NO idea (the rules are insane).

[Occasional Fan]

They've just been discussing this very point on TMS, and it is massively complicated - so much so that their conclusion was that they will just stay until the umpires leave! I have no idea when the close of play will be, having listened to the discussion, nor do I know how anyone is going to work out when it should be! Good luck to Billy Bowden and Steve Bucknor! From Cricinfo, it seems that minimum overs were in fact 98, not 105, but I have not the slightest idea why - nor the energy to read the regulations again. Sorry!