Giles and Panesar to play against Pakistan?

[Rachael]

It now seems quite possible that England's seam bowling options for the Pakistan series will be Hoggard, Harmison and one or more from fringe players like Plunkett, Mahmood and Lewis. Simon Jones looks like being out, Flintoff may well also be absent and it's far from clear that Anderson and Tremlett are going to be available.

The early season wickets that offered some help to seamers will almost certainly have given way to tracks more like the recent Trent Bridge track: batting paradises on which most seam-up bowlers can do no more than nag away.

If Giles returns he's an automatic choice... but given Pakistan's notorious weakness against spin (and the anticipated bowling crisis and unhelpful pitches) Panesar currently looks a better bowler than the alternative seamers - is it time for the England selectors to consider playing both?

[workkey]

Rachael, i have a point to make here..we are not weak against spinners infact we are weak batting on bouncing tracks ..i would like to see Pansear playing against us ..but i guess we will be having a tough time against Harmison,Hoggard and Flintoff.

[Mike]

Rachael, history between these two teams playing in England shows that England only take a spinner into the game at the Oval. They use an all-pace attack at the other venues. Pakistan tend to take a spinner into all venues except Lord's. I think, from that evidence, we can rule out England playing two spinners. However, let's speculate whether England should use a spinner in all matches. I think they should because England has a poor record against Pakistan in this country when using an all-pace attack. I would stick with Panesar as he has a knack of taking wickets. I'd take him into all the matches against Pakistan.

Although Bob Woolmer claims pace will be important in the series, I think that is a red herring. Danish Kaneria will play most of the series and take quite a few wickets. This series will be decided on which spinner takes the most wickets.

Here is Kaneria's record with Essex:

Team   Balls   Mdns   Runs   Wkts   BB    Ave    5wI   10wM 
Essex  5746   209    2678      95   7-65  28.18   7      2

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Mike

Rachael, history between these two teams playing in England shows that England only take a spinner into the game at the Oval.

First things first: this most recent Test at Trent Bridge was crying out for a second spinner. Aside from a brief period when the ball first started reversing (and was still hard enough to bounce) the Edgbaston and Old Trafford tracks of last summer were also pretty awful for seam-up bowling: Lee and Hoggard went through both Tests without ever finding ANY encouragement....

Second up... there's a case for sides just picking their best bowlers pretty much irrespective of what they do... and no-one surely doubts that if England had Murali and Warne in their ranks... both would play. To my mind... Giles and Panesar are both more accomplished bowlers than the likes of Mahmood and Plunkett... and should both be in contention.

Third up... whilst it's true that Inzi and Yousuf can play spin pretty well... both are actually far better against seam bowling... and judging from what the former players were saying on the radio over the winter, the majority of Pakistani batsmen have historcally been rather inept against spin (not helped by home pitches like the ones witnessed England's most recent tour... which were less helpful for the spinners than even an early-season Headingly would have been).

My own feeling is that two spinners is only an option if Flintoff is fit: if he, Hoggard and Harmison are available to bowl seam-up... then Giles at 8 (ahead of Plunkett) and Panesar at 11 (ahead of Mahmood / Lewis) strikes me as worth considering.

The tail looks better that was as well

[greg]

No way on earth should England play 2 spinners at home.If for some reason we did then why would you pick 2 of the same sort?

Probably a pointless discussion as Giles still hasn't played any cricket yet this season and will need a lot of games under his belt to deserve his place ahead of Panesar on a bowling front.

Knowing Fletcher's obsession with bowlers who can bat he will probably be straight in without proving his form though.

[DomainK]

There is no reason for England to play two spinners at home against Pakistan.The Pakistanis are good players of spin bowling and I believe England has the right pace attack to beat Pakistan.

[gibbs_fan]

I agree with Greg. England should pay 1 spinner. Ashley Giles IS NOT A SPINNER. He does NOT turn the ball. He is a slow left arm bowler. Monty Panesar should definitely play. He is a talented spinner. I hope England give him a run. I think he can make a serious contribution. I dont think players should be picked on reputation. Ashley Giles should first play some county cricket and take some wickets before he is considered. Pakistan weak against spinners???????????? Sub-continent players have no problem with spin. If England are to win, they will need Harmison and Hoggard to be firing. As for the back up bowlers I do not think that they are any good. England will really be tested against Pakistan. I think it will be a close series.

[Paoli]

Absolutely no way.

You only play two spinners if you have two quality spinners. As Australia do with Warne and MacGill, and we know how seldom that combination was used until recent times.

Point is, England's spinners aren't great. In fact I'd go as far as saying Giles is sub-standard. Panesar's recent form shows that he is a prospect, and should be stuck with. England don't have two quality spinners. They don't even have one world class spinner. So there is no reason why two should be taken in to the game.

[Collyisamackem]

Indeed Paoli, we have world class seam bowlers on seam-friendly pitches - the most seam-friendly you are going to get in the modern, batting-friendly game. Why on Earth would we leave out exciting young talent, or even more established talent, to play two spinners against a spin-streetwise side like Pakistan on those same pitches?

[flanflinger]

Giles is an adequate Test spinner, he is not great and nor would he claim to be. His main strength can hold up strength is that he can hold up an end, and when conditions suit he can use his height to extract bounce which can cause problems. He can also bat and is a very fine fielder. But he will never rip through a team in unfavorable conditions and bowls too much over the wicket, trying to get some sideways movement from the rough.

Panesar strength is primarily that he has the ability to get good players out, even good players of spin. He uses spin, bounce, flight and guile, he is clearly a big prospect for the future. But he is still learning and the other parts of his game are well under par.

I would only play them together, if Giles is fit, on a turning pitch (Sub-continent or Sydney) and would not look to replace a seamer with them in English conditions.

At the moment if Harmison is fit, and Flintoff's injury is not as bad as it could be, I would simply replace Lewis with Harmsion and try and get Anderson back to come in for Plunkett (who has done all that has been asked of him). When Giles is fit I would swap him for Panesar, certainly for the Ashes.

I would look towards getting Monty in the team, in place of Giles, next summer.