So spinners don't win matches in England....

[Rachael]

The best match of the England-Sri Lanka series saw spin bowling dominate... and now Monty Panesar has spun his side to victory against Pakistan: surely evidence, if any were needed, that English conditions DO suit spin and that in the right situation it COULD be right for the home side to play two spinners in England.

Giles at his best would STILL the best no 8 in England... and Panesar is surely the best no 11: the reserve seamers are NOT their equal!

[Mike]

I'm not convinced that conditions in England suit spin as much as seam. This Old Trafford wicket was unusual in that it was very hard which gave Harmison the steep lift he needs to be effective but, by Day 3, it was also very rough which enabled the spinning ball to grip. Combined with the bounce, Panesar managed to beat both batsman and keeper on a couple of occasions when his deliveries raced away for byes.

Bob Willis thinks that Panesar is the biggest turner of the ball since Underwood and Strauss employed two slips as well as the two "silly" positions around the bat.

Inzi said that he batted first when he won the toss because he thought Kaneria would be unplayable on Day 4 and 5 on this wicket. Thanks to centuries by Cook and Bell, Kaneria never got a chance to prove Inzi's theory.

BTW, Thorpe thinks that Panesar has ownership of the England spinner role and Giles is effectively the reserve spinner when he is fit to rejoin the squad.

[DomainK]

Agree with Mike there. Additionally I think the Pakistani batsmen underestimated Kaneria to an extent. Pakistan played poor cricket againt Panesar and I am surprised about that. On the contrary, the English batsmen played Kaneria carefully and played him well.

I still believe that Kaneria is not quite the spinner the Pakistanis make him look like. He is young and is yet to learn a lot more. I think he bowled bad and could have done a lot better.

[greg]

Rachael generally spinners don't win test matches in England.Only good ones can do that and Murali is exceptional and Panesar is possibly the best we have had since Underwood so i think you are overstating it a bit.If Giles had been playing instead of Panesar i doubt we would have seen the same spinning performance.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by greg

Rachael generally spinners don't win test matches in England.Only good ones can do that and Murali is exceptional and Panesar is possibly the best we have had since Underwood so i think you are overstating it a bit.

Have to agree with Greg here, two spinners on that pitch would have been possible. (Giles would have done better than Mahmood) but generally two spinners would not work in normal English Conditions (look at the weather - is this a normal summer?)

Another key Greg mentions is the quality of Panesar, it is evident that he is the most naturally gifted spinner of the all since Underwood. Spin bowlers like Warne, Murali etc. have always taken wickets in England, but spinners of less talent do not.

4 seamers and a spinner should be the normal English attack in England, but if the pitch is right, and the talent there, then you can take two spinners.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

look at the weather - is this a normal summer?

According to this article England can expect more summer heatwaves in the future. This bodes well for the development of spinners. The dry wickets will encourage more players to take up spinning and the increased competition could produce more good spinners like Panesar and eventually a world-class spinner like Warne or Muralitheran.

Update: Apparently, Giles also thinks that Panesar has ownership of the England spinner role and that he needs to win it back rather than it being there for the taking when he is fit again.

[Alison]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

generally two spinners would not work in normal English Conditions (look at the weather - is this a normal summer?)

It's not been traditional English conditions, but if it's true that this weather is a result of climate change then it's quite likely that it will become normal before too long.

[flanflinger]

Oh I am fully aware of the potential for our climate to change and mean that the type of weather we have experienced recently may become the norm.

However, I still feel that an early season Test at Chester-Le Street, two spinners could be excessive!!

[Trescothick]

England will never bring two full time spinners and I also think if Panesar continues even close to how hes started he will get the nod ahead of Giles... I say we don't need Giles batting if we've got Panesars wickets and we will simply have 2 trust our batsmen do the job.

Pietersen seems to be becoming a regular part-timer so if he continues to develop and with STrauss as captain he will become useful as well, maybe a new spin version of Flintoff on our hands? But with his strength more in batting as opposed to Flintoffs bowling

[Quagmire]

Monty has taken a giant step in the last couple of matches and he has shown that he can bowl. Murali can win a match on any surface and so can Warne so cancel them out of your theory, Monty bowled well to help his side to a win. Normally spinners dont perfrom as well in England as in other countries, but saying that spin bowlers can't bowl well in England is short sited, and to say that England should bowl two spinners in the same side just because the two leading wicket takers of all time took lots of wickets and one good performance from an average spinner. Lets be realistic at the moment he has shown he is a capable spinner but wait a while before we consider him as a great spinner.

Bowling Giles and Monty in the same side would not be a very smart move by the English selectors it would be taking a giant step backwards. A four pace bowling line up is what has helped England to victories.