Tres coming home

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I think it is the third or fourth series in a row that England have gone into with a very weak batting order.

Exactly - I remember me moaning about this fact in 2005, the difference being Enland had IMO the best pace attack in the world t that time.
Harmison was in form

Flintoff was in form

Simon Jones was outstanding

Hogard did his bit

Originally Posted by Oliver

until Flintoff works this out, I will not be wholly happy with him being the lynchpin of the team at number six (or five in this series!!!).
Don't get me wrong. I'm glad he's there, but currently the England top order with him at five(!) does look alarmingly suspect.

I agree again - as good as Flintoff can be, that type of player should not be the lynchpin, I think he should be able to bat at 6 though, and have some sort of licence fot his stroke play, as you say though with Flintoff at 5, with the present top order does not fill me at least with confidence.

[first change]

Who has suggested Flintoff will bat at five? Strikes me as absolutely impossible!

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by first change

Who has suggested Flintoff will bat at five? Strikes me as absolutely impossible!

Well:-

Originally Posted by Oliver

I will not be wholly happy with him being the lynchpin of the team at number six (or five in this series!!!).

Oliver could mean that Collingwood would bat at 6, that would put Flintoff at 5.

[greg]

You can't go with KP and Freddie together in the order.Have to have a gap between them surely.

[flanflinger]

I think it comes back to the last Ashes test when we went in with the extra batter, and Flintoff remained at 6 with Collingwood coming in at 7. As Collingwood batted all summer at 5, it would be fairly illogical for him to come in after Fred!!

In the last Test series they played together Collingwood came in at 5, with Fred at 6... I don't think that will change..

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ausve...ch/225266.html

[dickies dragons]

Expect Fletch to go for,
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Piererson
Collingwood
Flintoff
Jones
Giles
Hoggard
Harmison
Anderson

We need Giles as second allrounder,look at the vulnerable tail.
Axis of Cook/Bell also looks vulnerable,but expect fighting qualities of Collingwood/Jones<both back foot players>to see us through.
We desperately need Harmy to bowl like he did at Lords in 1st test 04.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by greg

You can't go with KP and Freddie together in the order.Have to have a gap between them surely.

Yes I agree greg, it could come off with a bang, but IMO there has to be at least one place between them.

[first change]

Originally Posted by dickies dragons

We need Giles as second allrounder,look at the vulnerable tail.

Agree that is the probable team. But surely the definition of an all-rounder is someone who would be in the team (or at least, very close to the team) with bat and ball. If Giles couldn't bowl, he would have been an excellent club cricketer, but no more. If he couldn't bat, he'd be a decent county spinner - certainly not worth a place in the international team.

I don't doubt that Giles has helped England out of some tough situations, but if we start relying on him for runs, we really are in trouble. The top five all average over 40, and Flintoff and Jones should add some extra runs. We don't not pick batsmen because they can't bowl and we shouldn't not pick quality bowlers because of a weakness (which, in Panesar's case, is not as extreme as people imagine) with the bat.

[dickies dragons]

I allways think back to the last day of the last ashes series,when Giles helped Pieterson to bat The Aussies out of the game,,thinking back didnt he also hit the winning runs in a very tight game earlier in series?
He may be a bits and pieces cricketer but certainly an extreemly valuable one.
If wicket conditions are favourable then Monty should play instead of one of the quicks,my pick would be Anderson.
We must not underestimate the value of trying to keep as many of the previous ashes winning team intact.

[first change]

Absolutely, I agree - he's a solid, useful player, who did a decent job before we had a quality spinner. We've got one now in Panesar, and he should be of more net worth to the team than Giles. In the last Ashes series, Giles scored 150 runs at 19 - not bad for a bowler who bats - but appalling for a genuine all rounder. He took 10 wickets at 57 which is, let's face it, dreadful. I know the stats don't tell the whole story, Giles didn't bowl as badly as that, and played a useful holding role. But England need to recognise that they do not have the depth of attacking bowling this tour. Jones will be sorely missed. Hoggard will be steady, Anderson is not as destructive as he was and Harmison is all over the place. That, potentially, leaves us with one bowler (Flintoff) who will probably be a successful attacking option. Panesar could make it two - letting Hoggard (and Anderson if necessary) do some donkey work in between overs 15-65.