Much Respect to Harmison

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Pete

They're hardly going to send a letter saying they've revoked the death threat.

Its OK for you to say that safe in the UK, they have sent no letter, that means the threat is still on, proves my point.

On a cricket point I agree with you, Harmison, Flintoff or none of the pace bowlers should be going, in cricketing terms, I have posted for weeks there is two much cricket, and our best players are going to suffer burn out, Australia, and I think India, are thinking the same.

[Pete]

they have sent no letter, that means the threat is still on, proves my point.

I was being abit sarcastic

If they wanted England to stay away then they'd be sending death threats now. Unless they start sending death threats then there shouldn't be too much of a problem, The Aussies were ok there.

[Ernest]

strange as it may sound Pete, the death threats did not come from the Magabe camp,after all he wants us to be forced to go there, there are groups that would have a pop to blame it on Magabe, the eyes of the world will be there, that will fuel demonstrations.
Nothing to fear from Magabe, I dont think, a lot could be gained by some bringing the country into a riot torn state.

With respect to the Aussies, this is one game they are small players in

let them play in Indonisia

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

Occasional fan - I don't think I will change my views on this issue.

Zainub, you make some excellent points. As I have said elsewhere, I do not feel I am in a position to sit in judgment over anyone who has considered the moral issues in this matter, as you clearly have. I also do not expect anyone to change their views on the moral issues once they have considered them in the light of the information which is available. Either you or I might change our position if new information comes to light, but we have both considered the information which is there at the moment and we have come to different conclusions. That is fine with me. This is one of the reasons why I generally am not in favour of organisations making what are essentially moral decisions. If you and I were both members of the England ODI set up at the moment and the decision were made by the ECB as to whether or not to tour Zimbabwe in November, one of us would be disappointed (which we would get over) and pressurised into undertaking (or not undertaking) a cricketing commitment against our moral principles (and that could be much more difficult for us to get over). I think it is right that the decisions here are being left to the individuals concerned, and I am happy to hear that the ECB has told all players that their decisions on this matter will have no effect on their longer term positions within the England set up. There is a by-product to this position, however, which is that the players themselves are inevitably going to be the recipients of all sorts of advice from people in the two camps - i.e. the pro- and anti-tour camps. The discussions in these threads are really an extension of that. I don't get to see all the English newspapers, as I live outside the UK, but I suspect that there are a few columns and letters dealing with these questions most weeks (Selvey's in The Guardian of 11 September being one: Alison's post of that date refers).

You also point out that there are many other areas in the world where immoral things happen, and of course I accept that viewpoint, although people will have their own views as to which actions are moral and which immoral in each of the situations you mention (as indeed they do in Zimbabwe: there are at least some people there who believe it is completely morally acceptable for many of what I consider to be abuses to take place). In each of these cases, I would suggest that it is for the individual involved to make his or her own moral assessment of the situation and, if he or she feels that injustice is taking place, to determine whether and what action he or she can take to protest against it or correct it. In another post I admitted that I do not honestly know whether Stephen Harmison pulling out of the Zimbabwe tour will affect what is happening in Zimbabwe. Further, if the whole tour were cancelled I do not know if it would have an effect, and to be honest if George Bush and Tony Blair formed a coalition of the willing to send an army there to effect regime change I don't know if that would help either (let's just say that the jury is still out in at least one other country where they tried it). But I am sure that doing nothing is not the answer. As Edmund Burke said (apparently: he didn't write it), "It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing for evil to triumph". We can't all do something to address what we perceive as evil in every situation where we see it, but, in some instances, you, or I, or Stephen Harmison, can do something. I am glad to see Harmison pull out of the Zimbabwe tour, because I would do the same. I am not so sure that I would decline to travel, for example, to Pakistan, where, though democracy is reportedly on somewhat shaky ground, I am not aware of the sort of human rights abuses which have been reported from Zimbabwe - but I'd be open to persuasion by anyone who wanted to give me some report or evidence of such abuses there (I really hope for you and your country that this is just a hypothetical discussion).

Finally, you ask how Harmison comes to a different conclusion as to the rights and wrongs of playing Zimbabwe in England or in Zimbabwe. I can't answer for him on that, but I can understand (though I don't agree with) Ernest's point of view on the question - i.e. the argument is with the Mugabe regime, not with the players (nor yet with the ZCU, pending the outcome of the enquiry into racism within that body). Maybe Harmison is closer to Ernest than he is to me on that one.

[Ernest]

Now it would seem flintoff will be joining Harmison in not touring Zimbabwe,I think this tour is in doubt:----

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CR...20SEP2004.html

[Zainub]

Occasional Fan - You are probably right, these are such contentious issues there is always bound to be wide spread difference of opinion. Harmison reckon he doesn't feel he should go, so he shouldn't go. If others think its fine they should go. It’s not fair, I admit, on them when people of various parties, the for-tours and against-tours, come out and questions their moral credibility. I think I have been somewhat guilty of that too my self. I'll try and be more considerate in future, thanks for making me realize nevertheless. On the situation in Pakistan, it is definitely not as bad here as in Zimbabwe thankfully, I was just giving an example that you can't judge weather it is morally correct to visit a county on the basis of it's democratic status. I have a lot of hope in our present generation, when people from my era are going to enter politics, and I'm hopeful they will, we will probably be the first generation of educated, moral and yet liberal leaders at the same time. Pakistan's future is bright. I have a lot of hope.