Television Programs Thread

[Rachael]

Maths is a language... and one I love. It's an entire cognitive universe that is just plain beautiful... and in my experience the only people who understand it in terms of very mechanistic procedures are people who just don't "get" it. Bit like foreign languages, really: to me, mastering languages like Franch and German is a very mechanical thing... based on grammar and extensive use of dictionaries... and just plain hard work as it involves constant translation... but to those those whose minds "work" that way such languages come easily... as they just "think" in those languages and use them as naturally as they do their "native" language.

All written as someone who has spent the last 15 years embroiled in history!

[Beny]

Originally Posted by Lemming 53968

I watch history programmes because I want to I want to be told a fabricated story, I find history programmes interesting but view them with the proverbial pinch of salt. As a mathematician I like to see proof before I believe anything and hearing some wierd idiot with a Ph.D saying "We can assume that..." and "It is common opinion that...", I ain't fooled. They take f$*k all evidence and make something interesting out of it. (Of course I am referring to more "ancient" history, rather than modern which obviously can provide more evidence.) They look for what they want to and assume what they want!

Ask ten historians whether Joe Bloggs (some historical figure) was a good a bad person and why, you woul be there all day trying to get them to agree with their result.

Ask ten mathematicians to solve a soluble partial differential equation they'll be having tea and biscuits in a relaxed atmosphere in no time because they all agree on what is correct, if someone doesn't agree with the other nine, then he's giong to have made a mistake!

I'm a stargate nut... Ohhh love it!

Are you suggesting Lemming, that when you talk about somebody you know today, there will not be differing oppinions as to weather that person was good or bad?
The fascinating thing about humanity, that I find at least, is that we all seem to think that everything works. We want to be told things in absolutes. In lemmings example I would much rather sit with 10 philosophers and talk about ethics and morality, never reaching an agreement, than sit around with 10 scientists and agree that e=mc2. I'll tell you why you dont like history Lemming... because its hard. I mean this with no malice, you, like most modern day kids grew up in a classroom where the teacher told you 'this is how it works, now remember this for the exam'. History is like us. It's complicated and there ar'nt always perfect answers but that doesent change the need to study it. The old quote, 'those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it' rings true but its more than that. Hisotry educates us about oursleves. We're so caught up in our modern day world that we forget to ask the questions that people throught the ages have been asking. Who are we?

They take f$*k all evidence and make something interesting out of it.

You've been watching too much of the history chanel. Read some real history. Good place to start might be Christopher Hibbert's 'the French revolution' (in fact anything by that genius), or my favorite at the momment is Adam Zam^&%%^% '1812, Napoleon's fatal march on Moscow'. You can also read Simon Sharma, who might be more relevant to you as an Englishman.

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Maranello

But maybe that is because solving equations and such like is a fairly mechanical task, rather like putting up new wall-paper or fixing a car; any trained chimpanzee should be able to do it.

There is no mechanical way to solve any old partial differential equation unfortunately. There is - of course - for certain types, but there are an infinite amount of unsolvable p.d.e.'s. A trained chimp unfortunately could not do it or else the world would be a better place. High school maths is mechanical, above that level it has a huge drop-out rate as intutition and understanding (as well of course hard work) is required.

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Maths is a language... and one I love. It's an entire cognitive universe that is just plain beautiful... and in my experience the only people who understand it in terms of very mechanistic procedures are people who just don't "get" it.

This is probably the most I will ever agree with you Rachael, you are spot on there. Mathematics has the knack - unique in all studies I believe - of being able to separate the men from the boys. I've been pretty lucky so far to reach degree level but have seen people with A* in GCSE get E's and fails at A-Level despite hard work, and then people with A in A-Level Maths and Further Maths not even reach their second year of thier degree. People believe it to be mechanical and indeed to an extent it is, but the people who can only study maths mechanically rarely make it. You've either got it or you haven't!

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Beny

Are you suggesting Lemming, that when you talk about somebody you know today, there will not be differing oppinions as to weather that person was good or bad?

Of course not, what i'm saying is that i'm practically a mathematician and personally like proof of things. I've nothing against historians but just personally prefer proof of statements.

Originally Posted by Beny

I would much rather sit with 10 philosophers and talk about ethics and morality, never reaching an agreement, than sit around with 10 scientists and agree that e=mc2.

I wouldn't entertain the idea of sitting with 10 philosophers personally. So long as they don't interfere with scientists then they can talk about what they like, but they'll never agree and thus cause more arguements and uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Beny

I'll tell you why you dont like history Lemming... because its hard. I mean this with no malice, you, like most modern day kids grew up in a classroom where the teacher told you 'this is how it works, now remember this for the exam'.

On the contrary, I don't like history because it bored me. That was definitely because of the teaching-method you stated above. I was good at history until the age of 14ish but really lost interest, that's when I became more interested in science, especially physics as well as maths which I was always good at, I have always preferred to know the truth about the world and universe we live in, that's why I do what I do.

Originally Posted by Beny

'those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it'

This is going to sound controversial. But why is it that this (let's be honest) tired quote is always rolled out when history is questioned? It's a little late for me to become king of England in the 16th century so I'm not too sure I need to know how to go about setting up a church just to divorce an ugly "blind-date" from Spain.

Originally Posted by Beny

Who are we?

I'm Lemming, you are Beny. What I'm personally more interested in is where we came from, a question which will be argued about by crank philosophers for eternity, but will only seriously be answered by scientists.

Originally Posted by Beny

You've been watching too much of the history channel.

Never heard of it!

Originally Posted by Beny

Read some real history. Good place to start might be Christopher Hibbert's...You can also read Simon Sharma, who might be more relevant to you as an Englishman.

I went to school with a guy called Christopher Hibbert! I've seen that Simon Sharma quite a bit, he was very entertaining, a very good story-teller, great imagination.

[Lemming]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Richard whiteley the presenter of Channel 4's Countdown had died aged 61.

I have enjoyed this programme for years, and no one will ever be able replace him.

When you watched him, he came across as an Englishman, the way he dressed, the way he talked, he will be missed by many.

This is sad news. Being a student I occassionally watched the odd countdown show and have always loved Richard, his ties and his humourous puns. A great man, a great presenter and a credit to television. You are quite correct Ern, he will be sorely missed!

[Beny]

I've seen that Simon Sharma quite a bit, he was very entertaining, a very good story-teller, great imagination.

He's one of the most respected revisionist historians in the world... Trust me, when he says something he could give you a thesis full of evidence to support himself. That's what I ment when I talked about the history channel. If its evidence that you want then T.V wont do it for you because they often dont have enough time to explain themselves properly (or their just idiots). Read a propper historical essay. As a VCE student even I have to back myself up with exessive amounts of evidence when I write something. An average essay is about 7-10 pages with references from paintings, writings e.c.t Alot of it is educated guess work, but most is based on fairly substantial evidence.

I went to school with a guy called Christopher Hibbert

This one fought in WW2, how old are you again?

I wouldn't entertain the idea of sitting with 10 philosophers personally. So long as they don't interfere with scientists then they can talk about what they like, but they'll never agree and thus cause more arguements and uncertainty.

Dosent your University have an ethics commitee? Anyway, whats wrong with arguments? I get worried when people agree. We shouldent agree about such difficult things.

On the contrary, I don't like history because it bored me. That was definitely because of the teaching-method you stated above. I was good at history until the age of 14ish but really lost interest, that's when I became more interested in science, especially physics as well as maths which I was always good at, I have always preferred to know the truth about the world and universe we live in, that's why I do what I do.

You know that the first great philosophers were also scientists and mathamaticians. They can all learn from each other and people such as Aristotle set up acadamies for all three.

This is going to sound controversial. But why is it that this (let's be honest) tired quote is always rolled out when history is questioned? It's a little late for me to become king of England in the 16th century so I'm not too sure I need to know how to go about setting up a church just to divorce an ugly "blind-date" from Spain.

You dont think it's important to know that sort of thing went on? How has it influenced todays sociaty?

A question I had to answer recently was 'How Revolutionry was the French Revolution?'. You have no Idea how many misconceptions there are about that period of time. The dangers of 'democracy' (AKA Mob rule), the power of capatilism (did you know that Trade unions we'rnt allowed in France until the late 1800's), this revolution has so much to say to us today.

We consider somebody who has the experiance of life to be 'wise'. The same goes for history only you begin to take in the experiances of thousands of people.

Napoleon once said that, 'there must be a superior power which dominates all other powers, with enough authority to force them to live in harmony'. Think of that in the context of world politics today or even just everyday life, then think about who Napoleon was and decide if you want another one. There are lots of Napoleons around today and it's a terrifying thought.

As a scientist can you tell me what is right and wrong?Freud was a philoshopher. He was also a scientist but he was brilliant because he stopped looking at the world in a scientific way, a world of absolutes.

[Beny]

Some quotes to sum up my argument.


"History is the witness that testifies to the passing of time; it illumines reality, vitalizes memory, provides guidance in daily life and brings us tidings of antiquity."
Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC), Pro Publio Sestio

"History never looks like history when you are living through it. "
John W. Gardner (1912 - ), quoted by Bill Moyers

[Leafy Seadragon]

Originally Posted by Lemming

I have always preferred to know the truth about the world and universe we live in, that's why I do what I do

I can see this in maths and, to a lesser extent, mathematical/theoretical physics, but my understanding is that the broader context of physics and science are more about the most probable or most workable explanation than they'll ever be about truth. One of the key differences between science and art subjects is the greater confidence with which supporting evidence can be gathered to support or disprove a theory, although both require a kind of fuzzy logic to move forward

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Beny

I get worried when people agree.

Me too.

Originally Posted by Beny

We shouldn't agree about such difficult things.

Absolutely.