Proud to be British

[Trescothick]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Let's keep this in perspective folks: the BBC evening news mentions equally severe bombings on an almost daily basis.. and this sort of attack is almost routine in places like Iraq and Israel. Doesn't make it any more welcome... or any less terminal for those who died... but even in the annals of 2005 terrorist attacks it's pretty insignificant.

No way insignificant at all!! Infact I never find the bombings in Iraq insignificant in anyway and neitehr do others however this clearly has more effect on the British public. Plus our territory is not a place of war so randomn attacks like this aren't meant to happen!
Your attitude suggest we just go: Bah! only 30 people have died! But that is a horrendous thing to say and had this been closer to home you'd be feeling very differently. I never feel an innocent should be killed and 30 is just terrible.. I know you like controversy but please lets have a little respect and think.

[Rachael]

If you happen to have lived in/around Moss Side at the time when things were dire there (they may still be, I don't know) then I fear your life would have been blighted by fear far more than any London commuters will now be blighted - more so if you were a single mum trying to raise teenagers.

The indiscriminate nature of today's blast is a point well made... but when I was an undergraduate the brother of a friend was killed in south London in a case of mistaken identity... and since then I've noted no end of cases of "victims" simply having been in the wrong place at the wrong time - on the footpath back to their own home, for instance.

I'm sure that doesn't make anyone feel any better about security on the underground.... but the real nightmare for commuters is the recognition that there's no easy way (short of not commuting) to largely isolate oneself from this sort of attack (in the way the wealthier of them feel they can by paying to live in areas way, way far removed, socially and spatially, from the world of gangs and drug-related killings).

For those trapped in places blighted by gangs and drug-related shootings... that's a feeling that's presumably all too familiar.

ps. No one's disputing the tragic nature of today's events... but these days there are many events of tragic significance on an almost daily basis: this will get the headlines (as the Asian Tsunami did).. but (sadly) it doesn't really stand out as more deserving of our attention than those other events.

[Lemming]

So what are you saying Rachael? It's a small consolation to the scores of families that have had a relative killed today to simply say that it happens somewhere everyday, so get on with it. It was just their turn, is that what you mean?

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Rachael

but (sadly) it doesn't really stand out as more deserving of our attention than those other events.

It is more deserving of my attention Racheal since I use the train/tube to commute most days, whilst I am not a frequenter user of the Baghdad Metro, or whatever the occupation/war has left there.

I agree that all human life is important, and the loss of any in such circumstances is tragic. But it is natural for us to be more concerned about what is happening close to us, to our near and dear ones, than that which is thousands of miles away. We are only aware of events in those far-off places because of our TV screens, and that of course cannot give them the sense of realness that a complete evacuation of the 3 million people using the LU does, for a LU user that is.

This was why there was probably equal coverage of the Manchester IRA bombing and the Rwanda genocide which had preceded it; no comparison in terms of scale, or horror - but one was on our door-step, whilst the other was in a far-place off where such events are sadly 'common-place', even if it is genocide in Bosnia, Rwanda or Darfur. Is that the ideal reaction? Perhaps not, but its certainly the most natural one. Even the most compassionate of us, those who feel the pain of every stranger and empathise with all distraught victims, would still feel that suffering in our family or those close to us would affect us more than that suffered by complete strangers. Of course, to be complete unaware of the pain of strangers, to let it not impact us at all, is callousness and in my view, deplorable - but, even for the most kind, there are degrees of concern, and levels of empathy; artificial equality would be unnatural.

One final point: blood, gore, disasters and similar 'extraordinary' occurrences by their nature hold a greater grip on us than that which is commonplace. Over 3,000 people die in road accidents every year in this country, yet that is never the focus of parliamentary enquiries, commissions, judicial reviews or lengthy news programmes. In fact, even the most basic attempt to rectify this problem, ie enforce sanctions on speeding through cameras, is met with howls of protest from the selfish motoring lobby. On the other hand, a few dozen dieing on a train at Ladbroke Grove holds the imagination and the thoughts of the whole nation. A couple of hundred being killed in a plane crash over Lockerbie 20 years ago is still an issue - not the 3,500 who died on our roads every year of those 20 years. And what about the 1,600 odd who died when a rather large boat crashed on an iceberg way back in the early 19th century - they are still making soppy Hollywood movies about it, still holding exhibitions, almost a century later.

The same analogy holds true today. Its not the scale of a disaster that makes it memorable and monumental, it is its extraordinary nature, and the horror, the blood-curling spectacle, and the shock that makes it so.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Lemming

It's a small consolation to the scores of families that have had a relative killed today to simply say that it happens somewhere everyday, so get on with it.

Very true. For those personally impacted by this event obviously takes on a dimension that singles it out with respect to all other events.. just as the friend of mine singles out the incident in which his brother was so tragically shot.

Of course, even those directly impacted today (loss of loved ones, personal injury and trauma, etc) will at some point need to (as you put it) "get on with it".... and my point was basically that the onus is really on the rest of us to set a reasonable example by recognising (as you say) that "it happens somewhere everyday".

Doesn't mean that we should be unsympathetic or unsupportive.... but we expect our politicians to make rational decisions based on objective assessment of situations.. and to my mind we (as the public who put them there) really do have some sort fo obligation (to my mind) to face up to that discourse - it would be a bit rich to expect the politicians to be level headed and yet license ourselves to lose all sense of perspective!

Originally Posted by Maranello

It is more deserving of my attention Racheal since I use the train/tube to commute most days, whilst I am not a frequenter user of the Baghdad Metro, or whatever the occupation/war has left there.

Agree with all you say, Maranello.... but leaving aside the fact that most Brits will pretty never visit London.. I trust you'd agree that political discourse on this event (including any new measures taken) will need to be based on a rather more objective standpoint....

[Cliff-UK]

Well said, Mongoose. Ours is a diverse country, which welcomes people. And tolerates people. The intolerant have no chance here. We laugh at ourselves and don't mind if others laugh at us. We want the laughter of others and enjoy what other countries bring to ours. We are an island race, a small bunch of islands, but indominatable. They can do anything to us.

My brother could have been among the dead or injured today. Very easily. I thank God he is okay. After Live 8, we showed that we embrace the world. Like no other country on the planet. Nothing will ever change that.

[Cliff-UK]

Originally Posted by Rachael

... but leaving aside the fact that most Brits will pretty never visit London.. ....

With respect - I don't know anybody who hasn't been to London at some point in their lives. And the people I know arre here in the North.
Rachael, how big should it have been before it makes you grieve? Just one life is bad enough isn't it. Meanwhile it is robbing our children of their innocence. My children have been deeply affected by this. They know their cousins could have died or have easily been left fatherless. And that brings it even closer to home to them.

Our Australian friends (cos, of course, we know we're friends really) suffered with the Bali bombing. Their loss in numbers was greater. But the psychological blow of an attack on home soil makes it less easy for many less hardened souls to dismiss it as insignificant.

[Ernest]

I think this thread has gone way of topic, it matters not on this thread the amount of road accidents, the point here is, the people killed on the roads knew the danger, and could have decided to travel by public transport, thus avoiding the dangers of the motorway, he had that choice.

But having decided to travel on public transport, he could not have avoided being killed by a bomb, he had no say in that.

Drugs have been mentioned, and the crime that goes with it, true but nothing to do with the topic of this thread, people have the choice not to get mixed up in drugs, with all it's dangers, the people killed on the underground today never had that choice, they had no way of preventing their deaths.

Domestic crime (nothing to do with yesterday), could be avoided by electing a government to clean things up, if there are votes in it, they would deal with it.

Then again we have the chance to vote for a better future, those who died today, never had a say in the matter, and will certainly never be able to vote.

Tragic as some domestic issues are, they are a seperate issue from what happened yesterday.and should be kept seperate.

Talking of perspecive, how many were killed today, 50 or 60, well thats because they could not kill any more, they would have loved the chance to kill thousands, just like 9/11.

Domestic killings are one matter, we could even say, why don't we save lives by giving more to the starving in Africa, but that is another matter, this thread is about the bombing of a bus, and transport stations by international terrorists, of whom we have no control.

[Lemming]

Ern, you sum up my feelings regarding this thread precisely! That's what I wanted to say, but couldn't think how.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I think this thread has gone way of topic, it matters not on this thread the amount of road accidents, the point here is, the people killed on the roads knew the danger, and could have decided to travel by public transport, thus avoinding the dangers of the motorway, he had that choice.

But having decided to travel on public transport, he could not have avoided being killed by a bomb, he had no say in that.

Innocent civilians walking down the street have no say in being run over by drunken idiots either.