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[Rachael]

With respect to Giles I believe his preference for bowling over the wicket has a lot to do with how close he gets TO the wicket.. meaning that (unusually for a bowler of his type) he's able to look for LBW decisions whilst siultaneously being hard to get away.

The interesting thing here is that it's taking umpires a while to cotton on to his line: some seem (even now) reluctant to give the LBW despite the clear evidence that he's bowling that way for precisely that result.

[flanflinger]

Tis true about Gilo that he does get close to the stumps. But umpires are always going to be reluctant to give an LBW from that angle as the possibility of the ball landing outside the line of the leg-stump. They have to be very sure where it actually pitches, and then when it does pitch on the stumps, how far the turn and natural angle will take the ball. So although it is possible to give an LBW, it is much much harder from that line of attack, no matter how close he gets to the stumps.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Milo

Ern, a chinaman is the left arm equivalent of the right handed leg spinner. It means the ball turns across the bowlers' body (foget the batsman). Warne turns it right to left. Adams turns it left to right.

Yes I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by flanflinger 23335

Because his stock ball is the googly (i.e. spinning the same way as a SLA)

As Milo states a Chinaman is the name for a left-arm wrist spinner

Well Adams a bowler who uses a Chinaman as his stock delivery.What can't speak can't lie.a Chinaman is a ball only used by Left arm Wrist spinners, see link.

http://cricketlearn.tripod.com/eng/bowl9.html#spin

Ern

[Teatime FatCat]

Well that was great fun, and has just given us all 3 hrs of discussion!

In my view, a top quality chinaman bowler would be a real handful over or round the wicket, as it's just so unusual. Pity I've never seen a decent one in my lifetime! (Adams, Hogg, Bevan, Katich, Mohammed?)

I bowl SLA, and it's really difficult to try and bowl a Chinaman believe me - however, I reckon if I can master it, I'd vary my bowling to a right hander betwen over and round the wicket throughout a spell.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Teatime Fatcat

I bowl SLA, and it's really difficult to try and bowl a Chinaman believe me - however, I reckon if I can master it, I'd vary my bowling to a right hander betwen over and round the wicket throughout a spell.

I would thik TT, that if you bowled a Chinaman around the wicket, that must be the hardest line to bowl, in particular if the ball was not turning.
From around the wicket, how would you get an LBW, it's impossible if you think, and you would have to bowl one good line at off stump, or a few balls would go for 6.
Yeah I can see your point about it being difficult, but bowled on a good line over the wicket, and the ball turned, that could be some delivery.
Master it Teatime, there are vacancies in the England team you know.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

SLA or left arm orthodox - (Giles, Boje) stock ball turns from leg to off - leg break.

ff
This has puzzled me for ages, I know it turns to leg, but I have never heard of a SLAs, delivery being descibed as a leg break, in fact I cant remember it being described as anything.

Ern

[flanflinger]

Ern

a leg-break is a ball that breaks (turns) from the leg-side to off-side. So it can be described as a leg-break, cause that is exactly what an orthodox left arm finger spinner does.

[Rachael]

Ernest - if you can envision Warne bowling around the wicket.. then you should be able to envision a chinaman bowler going around the wicket: it's just the mirror image. The effectiveness might depend on whether the batsman was left / right handed.. but no more so than it would for Warne!

With regard to the ball "not turning": wrist spinners have never really struck me as a breed with problems getting the ball to turn. Kumble perhaps turns it less than most.. but in principle it's stacks easier for them to get the extreme turn that's so valued today than it is for a finger spinner to do the same.

It's always struck me that the trick for the wrist spinner (and what sets the good ones apart) is not mastery of turn but control over where the damn thing lands: even I can get the ball to turn delivering wrist spin (and I could probably manage that left handed).. my problem is getting the ball to land close enough to the batsman to be considered a delivery!!!

[Teatime FatCat]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I would thik TT, that if you bowled a Chinaman around the wicket, that must be the hardest line to bowl, in particular if the ball was not turning.
From around the wicket, how would you get an LBW, it's impossible if you think, and you would have to bowl one good line at off stump, or a few balls would go for 6.
Yeah I can see your point about it being difficult, but bowled on a good line over the wicket, and the ball turned, that could be some delivery.
Master it Teatime, there are vacancies in the England team you know.

You are right Ern, but a good Chinaman will always turn, so non-turning deliveries are few and far between. The way to get an LBW from round the wicket with this kind of bowling is to bowl a few 'fizzers' just outside off stump, that turn in to hit middle and leg, then roll your fingers over the top of one to make it go straight on. Pitch it on off stump, and just short of a length and you are in business. In my level of club cricket, most teammates umpire the games, and you'll never get an lBW as a lefty bowling over the wicket in a million years!!

This has however got me excited. Does anyone know a good description of the leg-spinners grip and bowling action (with pictures) on the web. I could print it off and practise in a mirror! Any help gratefully received.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Dont forget the variation yoiu need to be a class leg spinner, its no good having just a leg break and a wrong 'un, you need top spinners, flippers as well variation in flight and drift