1st ODI: West Indies v Pakistan - St Vincent

[Captain]

192 all out, i hope the bowling is more disciplined.

[Zainub]

192 certainly isn't a bad total on that wicket (average first innings score for one-day internationals here is just 207) although we were I admit guilty of a shade of complecency - most of our batsmen got out after getting good starts (which sounds like a same old story) - theoritically we bat down to 8, out of those 8 genuine batters all but 3 passed 20 - at least one of them should have converted thier start into a score of note, something in excess of 60 - no partnerships as well, the highest was the 3rd wicket stand of 43 between Youhanna and Salman who top scored with 43. However having said that, considering the condition of the wicket, that was a fighting total.

As I write WI are 7 down on 78 and looking in a desperate situtation, 2 wickets for Rana, Afridi and Razzaq each. Michael Slatter made a very good point at the start of their innings. He said both winning and losing quickly become a part of your system - and most certainly your confidence. A team like Aus because they win so often even when on the odd occasion they find them selves in a bit of trouble they are able to come back and eventually win - this is because when you win so often you back your self to pull of anything - it becomes as Slats say "a habbit". Similarly for losing, when you've been going through a rough patch, like West Indies have, (they have won just 1 from their last 11 one-day international matches, with 1 no results and 10 defeats) you can figure out new ways of getting your self into difficult positions (read Charl Langafelt hatrick)...and you start losing matches you should be winning.

Although the pitch is not like the feather beds we are use to see all across the world (just has enough in it to keep the bowler interested) but you just have to see the way West Indies have batted to know how much of their current state is down to lack of confidence. Look at Chris Gayle's dismissal - he was just starting to get in his zone, hitting a couple of trademark zero footwark drives through the covers that no one moved to stop, and this was after he'd taken 3 wickets with the ball earlier and that too off arguably Pakistan's 3 best players, Inzi, Youhanna and Younis. For most players that kind of start (24 off 21 balls) would have made them think "oh, wow! looks like its going to be my day today, now I'll make this one count and cash in" but what does Gayle do, play an ambitious hook at a very well directed bouncer (and this was after having already noticed in the previous overs that Rana Naved does have a good and deceptive bouncer ...that ball which dismissed Xavier Marshall clocked 90 on the speedmeter)

[Zainub]

Pakistan win by 59 runs as Abdul Razzaq finishes with impressive figures off 4-29 in 9 overs. Shabbir Ahmed also made a successful return to international cricket with figures of 2-19 in 9.2 overs as Rana Naved-ul-Hassan continued his run of wicket taking form with 2-23 in nine overs. Afridi also chipped in with 2-29 in his 10 as West Indies struggled to 133 all out in 45.2 overs. Top score of 27 off 66 balls by Dwayne Bravo.

[Ninjaman]

I thought Lara was the reason they could not win.

A jinx someone said.

They have not forgotten how to win, they DON'T KNOW how to win!!!

I will repeat it and repeat it and repeat it until it sinks into people's heads!!

No amount of sports psychology, working as a team, team building exercises, discipline and all the other nice sounding concepts are going to help a team made up of AMATEURS with amateur techniques, amateur experiences and amateur cricketing knowledge.

Those things round off and give a slight edge to people who just need a little bit more to fulfill all their potential.

WI have #4 batsmen like Morton, who don't even know how to hit a ball through the offside!!!

[Zainub]

For those who are getting confused - I removed the following lines from my post "When losing becomes a habbit" because I feared it might offend some people.

West Indies are in need of some serious pep talk sessions from a sports psychologist me thinks - they have forgotten how to win

Seems like my 'fears' were misplaced as Ninjaman seems to think even more strongly on this issue, opining that they have not forgotten how to win, but rather worryingly don't even know how to win in the first place.

Of coarse, Ninj (can I call you that?), down right lack of ability is definatey a problem (especially more with regards to your bowling), but it's only one of the problems the team is facing as a whole at the moment, and not necessirily the biggest problem in my opinion, not at least with respect to the batting. Players like Ronako Marton (spelling?) can be tagged as 'simply not good enough', Xavier Marshall can be categorised as 'simply too young' but what of Shivnarien Chanderpaul , Ramnaresh Sarwan, Chris Gayle, Waywel (spelling) Hinds (and Lara usually plays in that line up as well) - these players are all reasonably experienced blokes, at their best they are all capable of playing match winning knocks against the very best bowlers out there. But despite that we keep seeing West Indies getting out for sub 100 and 200 scores , when you've got this amount of inconsistency in your batting against the amount of talent West Indies have ... then the only logical conclusion you can derive is not a lack of ability but a problem in believe that you have that ability. West Indies batsmen could do with some counselling. I don't see have seeing a sports psychologists should be considered a stigma (for lack of better words). Yes, technical deficency also has a part to play, but some counselling could do no harm - worth a try if nothing.

And if you think they lost because of the absence of Lara - then that can't be good either - relying on one player soley can never be good. I believe the rest of the West Indian team was good enough to chase down 193 albite(spelling?) be it against a high-on-confidence Pakistan side and on a reasonably tricky surface to bat on - but they let themselves down with their shot selection and temprement. It don't wish to take any credit away from Pakistan, we were brilliant, and deserved to win, but this batting performance goes a long way I think in highlighting the reasons why West Indies have been so alarming inconsistent in thier batting in recent times - they just simply don't have the confidence in their ability at the moment - and are looking for some inspiration from some where yet they seem to have no idea where it will come from.

Hopefully for Pakistan's sake, it will came after we've left!

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

WI have #4 batsmen like Morton, who don't even know how to hit a ball through the offside!!!

I'm not going to comment on individual players here.. but you do not, in principle, need the worlds most accomplished batsmen to succeed in Test cricket. To take the classic case, Mark Richardson famously started life as a no 11 bat and ended as an opener: he had a very limited game and basically relied on just the one scoring shot.. but would have walked into any Test side in the world except Australia.

Take another case: Nasser Hussain never realy let himself down in Test cricket.. and rarely played innings of any great fluency. He was often in poor nick... not seeing the ball that well or timing it that well.. but he'd limit himself to what worked for him and play from memory (mostly by playing the line of off stump rather than the line of the ball). In one three year period playing like that he even outdid Tresco: not pretty.. but it worked.

If you want a third case then take Flintoff: good eye and can wallop the ball almost as hard as GAyle.. but his success in 2004 was built pretty much on what he didn't do: he didn't try pretending he was TEndulkar and playing to all areas of the ground off both the front and back foot. Padding up or driving became his bread and butter... accompanied by rather less hooking, pulling and square cutting than before... and almost nothing in the way of late dabs off his stumps.

Strikes me that journeyman cricketers are all you need to succeed at Test level: great players help, obviously, but the critical thing is to have players who understand their own game and play within it... especially when they are not seeing the ball well and timing it well. Even the likes of Tendulkar and Lara strike me as resorting to this when they aren't in great touch.. and the rest of the WI lot just seem to be slower on the uptake.

I see little point in relying on players who don't understand their own game as they can, as Hayden has, fall as quickly as they rise: when it stoped working for Hayden he went from averaging 70 or more to averaging half that. What's needed is some work to get the younger WI batsmen understanding their limitations and working within them.. and that side of things will work fine.

Just leaves the bowling :-)

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

Of coarse, Ninj (can I call you that?), down right lack of ability is definatey a problem (especially more with regards to your bowling), but it's only one of the problems the team is facing as a whole at the moment, and not necessirily the biggest problem in my opinion, not at least with respect to the batting. Players like Ronako Marton (spelling?) can be tagged as 'simply not good enough', Xavier Marshall can be categorised as 'simply too young' but what of Shivnarien Chanderpaul , Ramnaresh Sarwan, Chris Gayle, Waywel (spelling) Hinds (and Lara usually plays in that line up as well) - these players are all reasonably experienced blokes, at their best they are all capable of playing match winning knocks against the very best bowlers out there. But despite that we keep seeing West Indies getting out for sub 100 and 200 scores , when you've got this amount of inconsistency in your batting against the amount of talent West Indies have ... then the only logical conclusion you can derive is not a lack of ability but a problem in believe that you have that ability. West Indies batsmen could do with some counselling. I don't see have seeing a sports psychologists should be considered a stigma (for lack of better words). Yes, technical deficency also has a part to play, but some counselling could do no harm - worth a try if nothing.[/b]

I don't see sports psychology as a stigma at all. Just not the final solution to our problem. Ultimately, we have to get the basic structure opf our game correct.

The thing is I don't see the level of talent you are talking about.

Lara is an all time great and Chanderpaul is world class in my opinion. But Gayle and Sarwan and even more so Hinds (who is not even as good as them) have loads of technical faults in their batting.

But we see what happens when they have their day and assume that the majority of times when they don't it is a mental problem.

Shot selection is as much an art as playing the shot itself IMO.

I'm not saying that counseling is bad at all, just bringing it in to rectify faults that should not be there in the first place in players selected for international cricket, shows the weakness of our set up.

[b]And if you think they lost because of the absence of Lara - then that can't be good either - relying on one player soley can never be good. I believe the rest of the West Indian team was good enough to chase down 193 albite(spelling?) be it against a high-on-confidence Pakistan side and on a reasonably tricky surface to bat on - but they let themselves down with their shot selection and temprement.

I believe they lose because they are regularly playing teams better than them. I was making fun of those who think Lara is a jinx.

[Paoli]

I think "spineless" is the best way to describe the West Indies. They don't know how to win, and haven't since the Champions Trophy.

Bennett King should stay but he obviously would like a few more players to choose from. The following players should never play for the West Indies again: Runako Morton, Ian Bradshaw, Ryan Hinds, Courtney Browne, Mervyn Dillon. They should probably start fresh and having a wash up of the squad.

[Shaka]

West Indies have lacked heart for a long time now and the current bunch have very little spirit from what I've seen. Pakistan are a good one day side but the bowling line up, while effective, isn't so terrifying to reduce any competent side to 80-7. Anyway, I won't judge too harshly just yet as I didn't think the wicket was very good for strokeplay, and for ODI's you certainly need a lot better.

From Pakistan's POV, all the bowlers did well, Rana used the short ball very well - as Zainub has pointed out, he's quicker than he looks and I've seen him get quite a few victims with that one now. Also great to see Shabbir back and bowling well. I know a lot of Pakistan fans aren't convinced by either him or Umar Gul because they don't bowl stupidly fast, but they both hit the seam, and keep getting success, so nuts to the fans!

[pakindya fan]

I just can't see why shoaib akhtar wasn't picked. I think the selectors have to start realising that even though pakistan can win without he brings an extra dimention to heir bowling atack.