England V Bangladesh at Trent Bridge 21/6

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I'm afraid that Collingwood was always destined to be a "nearly man" when it comes to Test cricket.

If you are going to classify Collingwood with the nearly men then you have to classify him with the nearly didn't as well as the nearly did: you can't just mention Steve James and Ed Smith without also mentioning Butcher, Hussain and Tresco. Collingwood's in the same bracket as the lot of them: quite capable of making the grade if favoured... yet not special enough to really demand selection if not.

Fortunately for Collingwood he's favoured by Fletcher... so maybe his turn will still come. I'd not bet against him ending with more Tests than Key....

[Trescothick]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Pietersen has made a case for Test selection against Australia.

Collingwood scored pretty impressively in the 20-20 against Australia if i remember correctly around 170.00 strike rate. So hes proven he can score against the Aussies. I wouldn't mind seeing him selected because then we would see quite a battle and a 6th quality bowler option...

I say first Test we have the following (our usual line-up):

Tresco
Strauss
Vaughan
Bell
Thorpe
Flintoff
G O Jones
Giles
S. Jones
Hoggard
Harmison

and if we lose we go on the real offensive and try and take the Aussies down:

Tresco
Strauss
Vaughan
Collingwood
Pietersen
Flintoff
G O Jones
Giles
S. Jones
Tremlett
Harmison

That could be a very interesting line-up and real shows the depth of the England team. Thios is obviously open to change depending on performances and 3 swaps might disrupt the line-up too much anyway. Just a suggestion

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Come on FF, I don't think there is any comparison between the pop-gun bowling attack of Bangladesh and the slightly out-of-sorts Australians..

Was being provocative and did have my tongue in cheek at the time, but it is intesting that for me Collingwood has perfomed very well in ODI's and has not been mentioned as a Test candidate, while KP is.. Collingwood has the advantage of having already played Test Criekct and also, can turn his arm over in the last few overs before the new ball....

I would choose KP before Collingwood - but then again I would choose Thorpe and Bell before KP...

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

and Tresco.

You ofetn slate Tresco for getting oppoortunities others didn't but you forget

1. Tresco was crashing runs at Youth level for years and had made quite a name for himself, before a slump in form that picked up before Test selection...

2. Tresco took the chances he got offered and turned them into a long-term career, he was selected on a hunch and used the opportunity to force his way into the Test team

You should not knock him for doing what he should be doing with the chances offered...

[Rachael]

I've no great beef with Tresco.. I just like to see the same recognition offered to Butcher, Hussain and Maynard... and Collingwood.. and doubtless many others who were all quite clearly just as capable of doing a job at test level.

Someone was writing in one of the weekend papers (I think that's where I read it) that had Fletcher not witnessed Tresco's huge century on a difficult pitch when the lad was still finding his way... or had someone other than Fletcher become England coach... Tresco could easily have ended up as overlooked as Maynard or Ali Brown.

He's not SO good that he could not have been overlooked... nor so bad that there's any real reason to question his place: he's solidly in there with that middle tier of fine players....

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

He's not SO good that he could not have been overlooked... nor so bad that there's any real reason to question his place: he's solidly in there with that middle tier of fine players....

Intrestingly Trescothick was talked up in his youth as being the best player of his generation. I rember reading about him and how good he could be - very similar to what people are now saying about Bell. But he struggled when he first played County Cricket and there were a few doubts about him, but as you say Fletcher saw something and picked him.

Intrestingly one of the comments initally leveled at him was his inability to convert starts into big hundreds. In his lat 30 games (since the Australian tour) he averages 51...and has made 9 of his twelve hundreds. I think that he suffered from the same avearge start as he did when he entered County Cricket, and we are now seeing some of that promise come through

In his first 30 games he averaged just 40... in his last 30 - he averages 51!!

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[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Rachael

you can't just mention Steve James and Ed Smith without also mentioning Butcher, Hussain and Tresco.

Do you know? I think I can.

Steve James (two Tests) and Ed Smith (three Tests) as opposed to Butcher - I'm assuming that you mean your beloved Mark (seventy-one Tests) Hussain (ninety-six Tests) and Trescothick (sixty-one Tests).

I think that makes Butcher, Hussain and Trescothick, not "nearly" but actual and fully-fledged Test players and Collingwood (two Tests) James and Smith "nearly men."

Granted Collingwood and Smith might actually get further chances as they are only 29-ish.

And I imagine Trescothick would carry on toward three figures (at least I'd hope he would) but I think it's unlikely that my two "nearly"s will rack up as many caps.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Intrestingly Trescothick was talked up in his youth as being the best player of his generation.
In his first 30 games he averaged just 40... in his last 30 - he averages 51!!

Good stats FF.

I remember reading about Trescothick when he was playing for the U19s. The journalist following the matches referred to him as "a left-handed Graham Gooch."

Around that time (1993-4) England were struggling - as ever - and I kind of wondered why it took the selectors another six years to pick him. I think a left-handed Graham Gooch would've been pretty useful back then too.

[Andy Mellon]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Granted Collingwood, James and Smith might actually get further chances as they are only 29-ish.

This being the same Steve James who's 38 years old and retired in 2003. Cricinfo has him listed as being a commentator. Yes, I'm sure he's got further chances

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

I would choose KP before Collingwood - but then again I would choose Thorpe and Bell before KP...

Hmm. I've already written on another thread, that Thorpe should probably be discarded now. Atherton and Stewart both had pretty poor seasons after announcing that they would retire at the end of their final respective summers. I don't think England can afford to have even a tried-and-tested player like Thorpe under-performing because his mind is at the golf-course.

Thorpe has taken time out of Test cricket in the past because his mind has not been "right." If he's already mentally hung up his boots, what chance for him having a stellar season?

Not much, I don't think.

My first Test XI is beginning to look like something like this: Three usual suspects, then Bell, Flintoff, Pietersen, Jones, Giles, and three usual suspects...
Though if Tremlett continues to impress (and yes, I know that was only Bangladesh) I think my usual suspects in the bowling department maybe slightly unusual.