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Old 18-06-2008, 08:02 PM
ll0OoO0ll ll0OoO0ll is offline
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Are Pakistan the best innovators in the Cricket World?

Hmmmm Let me see - reverse sweep, rumoured to have began by Hanif Mohammad in the late 60's and brought into the forefront of the public thanks to one Javed Miandad.

Reverse Swing - All the founding fathers of this art were Pakistani and only recently has the rest of the world come to know of how to do this but none has matched the 'Pakistani effect'.

The Doosra - The ball that literally goes the other way, as Saqlain Mushtaq the right arm offie who brought this delivery to world cricket would deliver a ball with his normal offspinning action that would spin away as from a right handed batsman as opposed to in (as the offbreak would go from off to leg).

Is it just my imagination and extreme bias that leads me to believe that almost all of modern crickets innovations have found their roots in - what do you think?
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Old 18-06-2008, 09:01 PM in reply to ll0OoO0ll's post "Are Pakistan the best innovators in the..."
sanketh84 sanketh84 is offline
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There are some people who believe that E.Prasanna an indian offie invented the "doosra" 30 years back, it was probably Moin and Saqlain who were the first to give it a name.Also a certain Alex Loudon claimed to have found a different way to bowl the doosra.

There are a lot more innovations in the modern game not "claimed" to have been invented by pakistanis which you didn't mention, the switch-hitting or reverse slog sweep as i like to call it by KP,the paddle-scoop shot and the douglas marillier shot it drew inspiration from;i still remember the shock in the faces of the indian team when marillier played the shot against them.

In the bowling department the variations in leg-spin bowling like the "slider" invented in the 1960's by Philpott and perfected by Shane Warne, the split-finger slower balls used by Dilhara Fernando and the "slower" short ball used by Shaun Pollock, the dipper used by dwayne bravo.

You are slightly disillusioned to think only pakistanis are innovators and the rest of the teams are not,in my opinion some of the innovations in batting and bowling I mentioned are probably as much worthy of appreciation as the ones u "claim" to have been invented by the pakistanis EXCEPT reverse swing.

Reverse swing is probably the only modern innovation truly discovered by the Pakistanis and handed down generations of fast bowlers like ancestral property, and the cricket world probably owes a lot to the guys who perfected this "art" for the sheer impact it can have on the game when the ball becomes soft and old.

Here's an interesting fact I learnt in my fluid mechanics class when I was studying engineering.Ever wonder why golf balls have dimples? Incase you didn't know golf balls were initially round and smooth, some guy discovered that golf balls after they got old and scuffed up tended to travel much farther due to "Magnus Effect" so they manufactured balls with artificial irregularities or "dimples". This same Magnus Effect is the cause of reverse swing.
Leads me to wonder why reverse swing wasn't tried by some one earlier? Even if one cricketer particularly a bowler who played golf knew the history behind "dimples" in a golf ball, he would be encouraged try something with an old scuffed up cricket ball.

Last edited by Occasional Fan : 19-06-2008 at 06:24 AM. Reason: Removing unnecessary full quotation of previous post
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Old 18-06-2008, 10:26 PM in reply to ll0OoO0ll's post "Are Pakistan the best innovators in the..."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Hmmmm Let me see - reverse sweep, rumoured to have began by Hanif Mohammad in the late 60's and[...] brought into the forefront of the public thanks to one Javed Miandad.
Hanif Mohammed did proably invent the reverse sweep. But an England batsman:Bob woolmer has been credited with making the reverse sweep more popular.Not Javed Miandad.

Javid Miandad, Andy Flower, Damien Martyn are said to have had the most powerful and effective reverse sweeps.

I remember one Ian Botham winning a Test in the Ashes Victory in 1981 (I think), with the help of the reverse sweep.

Paul Nixon could also claim to use the reverse sweep as his trademark shot, like Mal Loye did with the Slog sweep.
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Old 18-06-2008, 11:21 PM in reply to Ernest's post starting "Hanif Mohammed did proably invent the..."
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They didn't come up with the flamingo shot did they though?

I miss that amazing shot from KP,i think he should bring it back.
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Old 18-06-2008, 11:59 PM in reply to greg's post starting "They didn't come up with the flamingo..."
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Originally Posted by greg View Post
They didn't come up with the flamingo shot did they though?[...]I miss that amazing shot from KP,i think he should bring it back.
Yes He will go down in history as one of the great improvisers, a shot for all occasions.
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Last edited by Ernest : 20-06-2008 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 19-06-2008, 05:47 PM in reply to sanketh84's post starting "There are some people who believe that..."
Scott-Wozniak Scott-Wozniak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanketh84 View Post
This same Magnus Effect is the cause of reverse swing. .
Sanketh go find out what causes reverse swing because you haven't got a clue, or ask the Pakistani bowlers who started it how to make it reverse - they've very good at it.

"Contrary to what some think, the Magnus effect is not responsible for the movement of the cricket ball seen in swing bowling, although it does contribute to the motion known as drift in spin bowling."

Magnus effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's some interesting reading regarding the Pakistani pioneers to reverse swing -

" Pakistan are to protest to the International Cricket Council after their fast bowler Waqar Younis was suspended for ball-tampering."

BBC SPORT | CRICKET | Pakistan protest over Waqar ban

"PAKISTAN WILL protest to the International Cricket Council after their fast bowler Waqar Younis was banned for one match for ball- tampering.

Waqar was handed a one-match suspension and fined half his match fee by referee John Reid of New Zealand for picking the seam off a ball during Saturday's 18-run defeat to South Africa in Colombo.

Azhar Mahmood was fined 30 per cent of his fee for a similar offence, while captain Moin Khan was severely reprimanded for "allowing the spirit of the game to be impaired".

"I think John Reid has been a bit biased against Pakistan," said Yawar.

Cricket: Pakistan accuse referee of bias over Waqar ban | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET

"IMRAN Khan, the former Pakistan Test captain and world-class all-rounder, yesterday claimed that team-mates had been involved in cheating and took bribes to throw matches. "

Cricinfo - Pakistan 'cheats' described by Imran (12 November 1998)

Imran Khan even admits himself, yet you can't accuse them of being cheats because your posts get pulled!

Rediculous.
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Old 20-06-2008, 09:52 AM in reply to Scott-Wozniak's post starting "Sanketh go find out what causes reverse..."
Notts Exile Notts Exile is offline
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Can the English claim to be the best innovators as we invented the game to start with!!!???
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Old 20-06-2008, 10:15 PM in reply to Notts Exile's post starting "Can the English claim to be the best..."
Milo Milo is offline
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It is a silly thread, isn't it? On very broad terms, who invented leg spin and standing up to seam bowlers? Also, one player in Barry Richards invented the lofted drive over extra cover, and coming down the track to the paceman.

Many players have progressed the game of cricket. Who cares where they came from. Who invented leg theory by the way???

Last edited by Milo : 20-06-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 21-06-2008, 06:18 PM in reply to Scott-Wozniak's post starting "Sanketh go find out what causes reverse..."
sanketh84 sanketh84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak View Post
"Contrary to what some think, the Magnus effect is not responsible for the movement of the cricket ball seen in swing bowling, although it does contribute to the motion known as drift in spin bowling."
In my defence, Scott I am giving u the link of a website, u might not understand a lot of the technical details which are familiar to me as a mechanical engineer. u will also be interested in looking at the references that this person gives to validate the article in case u have any further doubts.

u will also be interested in read an article "Aussie professor cracks the english code of reverse swing in ashes 2005." He talks all about early boundary layer seperation causing reverse swing and the factors which cause this reverse swing and particularly how the english fast bowlers caused early reverse swing.

Here is the 1st website i was telling u.
The Magnus Effect
the title of the webpage is Magnus Effect: or "Why do cricket balls swing and curve balls(baseball) curve."

actually i dont blame you for the confusion because fluid mechanics is a complicated science and there are differing thoughts for the phenomenon of swing and some places say magnus effect is not the cause and some like the one above say it is. some say there is are different reasons for swing in the air and after the ball hits the pitch. he also claims that there is no relation between overcast conditions and humidity in the air assisting swing which is common belief in cricketing circles.
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