I don't want to start picking at Collingwood, I think he is a very good batsman as I have already said. But an average of 40.5 (I am sure this will improve) is not excellent IMO. A middle order batsmen, especially one who takes his time and builds an innings should be averaging at least 45+ to be considered having an excellent average. In the middle order you are often batting when the ball is doing much less for the quicker bowlers due to the new ball shine having worn off. And for spinners, it's a mixed bag of nuts, depends who is bowling to you and what the pitch is like.

The innings can not be measured by runs scored, and I did not say that it wasn't class, I just don't think it is top class. It was a parternship which did last for 72 minutes, but only a sixth of the runs were scored by Collingwood; which I think highlights the importance of the KP innings to such a high extent.

Collingwood and Pietersen stopped the tumble of wickets, which I agree, was vital in the innings staying together. But once Collingwood had gone, there could have been a flurry of wickets. Australia could have England all out leaving them 200 to chase at 5 an over. Which you would never discount if Adam Gilchrist got moved up the order.

Giles made sure that the game was definitely taken away from the Australians, so I still feel Giles' innings was key, he could have crumbled (as could have Collingwood), just like GO Jones did at Trent Brige. But he didn't, he stuck around and took the game and the Ashes away from Australia. For Giles, whose ability with the bat is okay but nothing special, to be able to make such an innings, then I feel Collingwood's contribution was more crucial than Giles'. But it wasn't top class, if it was top class he would have been there with KP right up until the end (unless KP got out and thus resulted in another England collapse).

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James May

So an innings is not top class unless a batsman is not out at the end? I'm rather surprised at that. Another interesting stat is that Collingwood was the fifth highest scoring batsman in that innings, behind Pietersen, Giles, Vaughan and Trescothick, and ahead of Strauss, Bell (pair), Flintoff and Jones who were all established players at the time.

As for his average, since he was re-introduced into test cricket after a long time out of the side, at The Oval, he has averaged 47.8, including 68 against India. That is pretty good.

I think the best way of seeing it is that Collingwood and Giles' innings were both top class, because for me both of them put in priceless efforts for the team, the difference being that Collingwood and KP turned the game around and Giles and KP finished it off.

Of course, KP's performance was the best of all, turning a barrage from Lee into a flurry of runs whilst Collingwood and Giles dug in.

I never said that but for Collingwood's innings to have been rated top class IMO, considering the pitch (which usually is a big factor in top class knocks, making a 50 on a sticky dog et al) wasn't giving the greatest assistance ever to the bowlers, I think Collingwood could have stayed in the middle longer.

A mark of a top class innings can, in theory, be finishing not out. If in the case of an opener, being the only batsman left at the crease at the end of the innings and having made something like 90% of the runs would be a case in which that would stand. But, my view, in a top class innings a batsman does not have to finish not out.

I was passing any comment on Collingwood as a batsmen, purely the idea that 40.5 is an excellent average. Absolutely no relation to Collingwood what so ever.
I completely agree.

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James May

I think I've been a bit too argumentative here, it's basically a difference of opinion on what is class or not. Let's leave it there.

Mohammad Yousuf in my opinion is the most under-rated batsman in both forms of the game. I just noticed how talented he really is, I have always rated him highly but not as highly as i should have.

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Bill Ponsford - The only one who could play in Bradman’s company and make it a duet.

Mahela Jayawardene for me one of the most under-rated player beside mohammed yousuf

Yeah Jayawardena is a great batsman not as stylish as other batsman around but he is so solid, hes a complete batsman.

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Bill Ponsford - The only one who could play in Bradman’s company and make it a duet.

I don't see how Chanderpaul is voted the most underrated batsman.

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Karthik Venkatesan

Why don't you Karthik? Is he overrated or does he provide exactly what is expected of him?

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James May

Chris Read.

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