That's true.

That's true also - he did exactly the same with Giles - as Flintoff was accused of doing with Panesar.
No I can't agree with you on this on pie_c, Vaughan was very fortunate in having the best side in the World in 2005, with no injuries, that side won the Ashes, not Vaughan or Fletcher - out of form captains, can weaken a side.
To be fair on Vaughan - he had the same ruthless streak as Illingworth - I suppose that does make a difference.

I suppose I would have to say Ponting is the best at the moment, recovering from losing the Ashes in 2005, to regain them in 2006 - but before I get carried away with Ponting, it would be a poor Australia captain indeed that could not win with players like - Hayden in his side, and Warne.

Ponting also look better because of how he performs, his batting is of far more use than his capaincy IMO.

I suppose the greatest captain of all time, a captain who had an influence on the game as captain would be Douglas jardine. He plotted the downfall of Australia more than a year in advance, now that is being a dedicated captain who will make a difference.
In other words he had plans the players had to carry out.

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Ern

Vaughan did have a fantastic team to captain in 2005, but he was instrumental in getting his players to play positive cricket in the aftermath of the Lords hammering. Vaughan also got them to believe that they could win the ashes.
It is this aspect of his man management that makes him the best captain currently. He may play and weaken the side by 10% but the 10% extra he gets out of everybody else more than makes up for this.
The only real blight on Vaughans captaincy copybook is the ICCCT final where Giles was underused, but that may have been because he believed that we would win easily anyway, especially as that was when Harmison was bowling at his best and at 97mph.

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Mark.

Stephen Fleming, as he isnt the greatest batsman he has taken New Zealand (a fairly average team) to be the best they can be

Come now ...Fleming is very far way above not bad as a batsmen.
But for the discussion its about his shrewdness as a captain.

Fleming no contest.

If Flemings so good whats his record like when NZ have played England?.

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Mark.

Sometimes i think captaincy is a bit of a joke. Usually the best batsman of team is promoted by default.

Vaughan is an average captain not bad not great, Ponting is an average captain not bad not great, Ponting is also a champion batsman which puts him ahead of Vaughan, Fleming is a good player a great captain tactically he is to reason why Australia could get beaten during Steve Waugh's era. Fleming is the man who worked out all the Australian batsman, for example the Damien Martyn gully trap, he work out how to get Ponting early by bowling three balls wide outside off stump hoping he will lunge and get a knick if it did not work he would tell his bowlers to bowl the fourth ball straight because Ponting can be caught on the crease early. There are two types of captains, leader who lead on the field like Ponting and Lara and then there are captains who are not superstar players who have more limited talents that lead through there star players and do more of the work behind the scenes, more like a coach than a captain. Vaughan and Fleming are not inspiring captains like Lara and Ponting, that does not mean they are better or worse they are just different.


ODI captain records (this does not count for much because the best teams are going to have the best records)
Ponting - 140 matches, 107 wins, 2 tied, 6 n/o results, 25 losses
Vaughan - 53 matches, 28 wins, 2 tied, 4 n/o results, 19 losses
Fleming - 211 matches, 94 wins, 1 tied, 13 n/o results, 103 losses


You also have to remember that New Zealand have 4 million people which is amazing to be competative with countries like Australia 20 million, England 60 million, and India being well over 1 billion. It shows how good Fleming has been for New Zealand cricket over the years he has got the most out of players like Bond, Vettori, Astle, McMillian just to name a few.

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Bill Ponsford - The only one who could play in Bradman’s company and make it a duet.

Vaughan the great man-manager, practically refused to bowl Simon Jones during the first Ashes Test in England in 2005. Jones "the knee" was very much used as an after thought, till, presumably Troy Cooley, pointed out to the dullard Lancastrian that the Glamorgan pace man was very much the teams best exponent of reverse swing.

By the fourth Test Jones had become our match winner, and when he left the field early on the final evening, most England fans and a substantial percentage of the onfield team felt our best chance of forcing another victory had gone. They were right.

It is interesting how Jones went from zero to hero during those four Tests. Judging by Vaughan's reticence to use him in that first Test, he (Vaughan) had extremely little to do with it.

A truly great captain. My a***!

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Red-it, Red-it, Read it and wept

Vaughan was never a big user of Jones up to the Ashes. He tended to use him as a shock bowler and to break partnerships and by and large that tactic worked (but yes i agree he underbowled him).

I never said Vaughan was a "great" captain but he is a good captain. He is tactically sound without being brilliant but he can get his team to relax and play without fear of failure. Would we have won the Ashes in 05 with any other skipper? I doubt it. After the first test Vaughan got his players to relax and attack Australia, the result an unexpected victory.

What I would say though is that Vaughan isnt a particulary good ODI captain - at times he's too defensive.

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Mark.