Well disciplined? Pakistan? eh....?

[Maranello]

Bob Woolmer on Pakistan in Sept-2004:
"They are the most disciplined side that I have ever had to coach in terms of behaviour," he said. "They are absolute gentlemen, every single one of them."

(http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cricket/...300394,00.html)

Bob Woolmer (on his website: http://www.bobwoolmer.com/coaching/qa.htm) in reply to a question about Pakistan’s strengths:


(Pakistani teams five main strengths are) Determination, natural ability, pride of performance, Speed, team ethic and behaviour.

Mark Benson the (English) umpire (who has officiated in Pakistan’s last three ODIs) said that they are the best behaved team that he has dealt with.

Bob

What is happening here guys?
Pakistan: well behaved? most disciplined? determined? team ethic & behaviour?
Have I slipped into a parallel universe where Pakistan are the ones with the team ethic and the mediocre triers, and the Kiwis are the ones with the brilliant but erratic prima-donnas?

On a serious note though, most of the current squad, including the newcomers, are all very committed, motivated and disciplined, the only noticeable exception being Shoaib, but even he has improved markedly since Woolmer took over and backed Inzi... so all in all, this seems to be a case where the myth of Pakistani indiscipline is seemingly not borne out by the facts..

[Shaka]

LOL

Yes well I think Bob is doing what any good coach would do and that is start everyone with a clean slate and talk up the positives of HIS team. I think in the past it's been a case of lack of organisation. Remember when Inzi and Miandad came off for bad light against the kiwis with only 50 runs needed and a bad forecast for the final day's play? Do you think that could ever have happened under Woolmer?

One of the first things he did was stop players talking to the press un-authorised and that put paid to a few bust-ups straight away. Shoaib and Inzi were ready to get in a boxing ring before a few guidelines for conduct were laid down. Before that Miandad was the biggest fire-starter in the team and he was the coach! LOL.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Shaka

LOL {...} Shoaib and Inzi were ready to get in a boxing ring before a few guidelines for conduct were laid down. Before that Miandad was the biggest fire-starter in the team and he was the coach! LOL.

LOL - I'm glad you retained a sense of humour about it all....

Seriously: if Woolmer gets his way with this side (read: his employers don't start trying to tell him what to do) then I reckon this could be the beginning of something vry special. My only fear is that some vocal followers of the team's fortunes will be too impatient for results: if he gets 3-4-5 years to really sort things out then I am sure there wil be lots of progress.. but I suspect he's unlikely to get 3-4-5 months before some are passing judgement!

[Shaka]

I share those same concerns Rachael. Pakistan has always had a problem of everybody wanting to be the boss and I would expect that Woolmer's bosses would allow him to do things his way and hopefully they'll keep in the background, although that's asking a lot. Pakistan fans can never believe they have lost because they played badly or the other team played well. If they lose the match must have been fixed! Poor Bob's already being pilloried on his website by fans demanding to know why he didn't answer their e-mail!

But the majority are very supportive and if he can just concentrate on his job, given time I'm sure he'll do well. Of course you are limited by the players you have to work with but aside from a regular opening pair, he's got a decent bunch.

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Shaka

Pakistan fans can never believe they have lost because they played badly or the other team played well. If they lose the match must have been fixed! Poor Bob's already being pilloried on his website by fans demanding to know why he didn't answer their e-mail!

But the majority are very supportive and if he can just concentrate on his job, given time I'm sure he'll do well. Of course you are limited by the players you have to work with but aside from a regular opening pair, he's got a decent bunch.

Agree with the second comment.. but maybe you are being too harsh on the fans? True, they can be very hysterical and emotional, but then so are committed followers of many sports, and Pakistani cricket fans are still much more civil and normal compared to English soccer hooligans or the Aussie people! In any case, the Pakis behave irrationally (complaining of match fixing, calling for heads to roll) when the team caves in with a listless display... if the team fights and then loses a close fought encounter (eg the two ODIs against Australia recently) most reasonable people are pretty supportive of the guys...

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Shaka

LOL

Yes well I think Bob is doing what any good coach would do and that is start everyone with a clean slate and talk up the positives of HIS team. I think in the past it's been a case of lack of organisation. Remember when Inzi and Miandad came off for bad light against the kiwis with only 50 runs needed and a bad forecast for the final day's play? Do you think that could ever have happened under Woolmer?
One of the first things he did was stop players talking to the press un-authorised and that put paid to a few bust-ups straight away.

LOL..that's true!
Agree that Woolmer is starting afresh which is right... I am just very pleasantly surprised that the guys are being described by objective observers as well-behaved and disciplined... definitely gratifying to hear that!

Main problem was Shoaib's mouth being much bigger and louder than any other part of his anatomy... once he was told to curb his "journalistic endeavours", morale was bound to improve!

[Shaka]

You see, I think Shoaib wasn't the only one to blame, there were a lot of things not being done right prior to the change of coach. Miandad and Inzimam publicly questioned Shoaib's committment and fitness and yet picked him to play regardless. I would say if he's not committed or fit why pick him? It was probably just naive of Inzimam but captain's and coaches should really support their players in public ( they can kick them up the ass behind closed doors!).

Then we had the ridiculous state of affairs when the PCB announced they were going to hold an inquiry into Shoaib's fitness and injury he sustained during the India series. This trial by media was a disgrace and Shoaib was quite right to be enraged by the whole affair. this isn't to excuse Shoaib's behaviour or attitude which definitely needed sorting - but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about things and the Pakistan hierarchy were very unprofessional in how they went about things. I'm hoping that Inzi has learned a lot about man-management from the way Woolmer has gone about his job...and I'm pretty sure he has

[Maranello]

Yeh, the whole enquiry into Shoaib's illness fiasco would have been hilarious had it not been real! How can any sane person order a retrospective enquiry into whether Shoaib had a back ache three weeks ago? LOL
But then all societies and countries have many strange court cases and weird litigation...the blame culture permeates everything and is a sign of the times I am afraid!

[Zainub]

I do feel people have always exaggerated the concern driven out of our disciplinary problems on the field and sometimes off it too. Hopefully people like Woolmer and Mark Benson coming out and saying a few things should remove a few misconceptions.

What Woolmer means when he calls us well behaved is that we're not that type of team where most members of the squad are likely to be going out to night clubs on away tours and coming back drunk from them, we have our own ways of celebrating but there is no drinking and smoking (Woolmer has also been on the record saying he's never worked with a side where none, absolutely non of the players drink or smoke). There have been a few cases of Akhtar being reported to come late at hotels, and stopping at the odd film preview in Jo'burg or fashion show in Lahore during a series but by and large since the post world cup era we haven't had many of those partying go type players in our successive teams, and we have maintained excellent discipline off the field, if not necessarily always on it. When he calls us true gentlemen he is probably highlighting the fact that we aren't a very vocal team - except for our fast bowlers probably and Shoaib Malik you won't find many people chattering away with opposition members in a peculiar style. I don't think I have seen any of this younger lot express disent at an umpire's decesion. I'm not saying this because Pakistan is the team I love most, but because generally I think we are the least provocative of all international tests sides, along with Bangladesh probably.

On the discussion of internal rifts between the team, and the much talked about relationship of Inzi and Shoaib - again I think the concerns risin by critics have been exagerated. I also like most of the others believe Shoaib has made an improvement in his attitude off late. Not under any other national coach could I have imagined him bowling first change, or shorten his run up, or refrain whenever possible of making his comments public - and the most promising sign is that he has been on record saying he does it for the team, like for instance he described the reason behind bowling with a shorter run up as "it helps the team's over rate". He is now putting the concept of "Team Pakistan" ahead of "Shoaib Akhtar - the individual” much more often then he would have in the past. I haven't for instance heard any of those "I think I am the best bowler in the world" episodes again. And that is by virtue of a realisation that he would not have existed had it not been of the team. It is a very, very positive and encouraging attitude that he has acquired over the last 3 months or so. That change has obviously eased out whatever differences he has had with the skipper in the past; Inzi has always been a team man, and a leader who's commitment has never been questioned will expect the same from his players - I have refused to agree with those who say their rifts were personal - and now that Shoaib is measuring up well on those standards of commitment expected of him by not only Inzi, but the coach, management and fans as well, his reputation over all has improved.

I also refuse to agree with those who say Miandad fought on purpose - he is man of strong opinions, one who likes to voice his opinions, and through out his playing and coaching career he has played with people with strong opinions resulting in natural difference of opinion, but nothing at a personal level. What Miandad in the end wants is the same as that of all Pakistani fans. He will be no less happy than any of us if Pakistan wins the world cup with Woolmer in charge. With regard to concerns over Woolmer not getting the right sort of environment in Pakistan I think , or would like to think, he and with the current squad of players we have Pakistan Cricket hs the best chance ever in there entire cricketing history to instill an enduring 'culture' of professionalism right down to the very grass root levels. If Woolmer had coached the team that went to the world cup in South Africa he would have come up against a few great players that were on that stage of the career where you game surrounds more around practice the improvement. Woolmer is a man who likes challenges, and few come bigger, and tougher than coming to terms with the complex manner in which cricket is run in this country of mine, he would have not taken the job had be not been sure of getting enough support from his bosses and confident of revitalising this team it self. Lastly, I would like to end this on the note that the numbers of impulsive Pakistani fans that cannot except defeat and rant about match fixing after each loss is far, far out numbered by the ones who don't. I can say with a measure of confidence that the majority of followers in Pakistan back Woolmer, and the team as a whole, and despite inconsistent results so far more people are optimistic about our future. At least I am. And will always be regardless.

[sanz]

Zainub yaar, No offence but most of your posts are too long and I find it hard to find time to read and respond at the same time. I just wonder if others feel the same way. Now I dont mean to offend you because I do find your comments interesting and I enjoy reading them.