Which pace bowler...

[Maranello]

Wishful thinking, I know, but if in the near future we have all our pacers (and medium pacers) fit and rearing, and could only select three each for the ODI and Test teams, who should we pick?

ODIs
I would go for Shoaib, Shabbir and Umar Gul in the ODIs... with Razzaq being the all-rounder who can bowl v.useful medium pace and swing. This would leave Naved-ul-Hasan and Umar Gul on the bench, with Azhar and Rao Iftikhar somewhere in the wilderness

Shabbir is in because he has the height, the bounce and the variety... Umar Gul because he is accurate and can do a mean out-swinger... Shoaib..well each team needs one free-loader! LOL.. I think Shoaib might just pip Sami, at least in the near future, but am happy for this to be shot down...

Prob. unfair on Naved to leave him out, but hey..can only play three!

Tests
This is trickier...but assuming we are playing both Kaneria and Malik as two wicket-taking spinners, I would go for Sami, Umar Gul and Shoaib.... would leave poor Shabbir out, but assuming that one day the sun will rise from the west (!) and Shoaib will start bowling late inswinging yorkers again, I have gone for shock pace over line & length...

[Rachael]

OK.. I've long been sceptical of Sami... happy to go along with a popular characterisation of him as a classic instance of what Boycott calls a "show pony": I know the kid is young... and still learning his trade.. and I'm not sure the term is warranted in his case... but I have rarely heard anyone say much to convince me otherwise.

Would you care to put the case FOR Sami? To suggest why he's in your long-term dream Test outfit?

ps. I've always understood Boycott's term to mean a guy who struts his stuff and tries to impress (usually by repeatedly dropping the ball short, at pace, and whizzing it through harmlessly to the keeper.. without worrying about minor matters like whether such balls actually BOTHER the batsmen.. without really doing so as part of a well thought out plan to get the guy out.. and without (on the whole) any great concern with making the batsmen play.

I associate a "show pony" with either inability.. or more commonly unwillingness.. to buckle down and bowl to a plan.. with a lack of discipline in bowling one side of the wicket.. with a stubborn refusal to take off the pace and concentrate on giving no width when the ball's gone soft and the batsmen are on top... and with a personal determination to get the better of a batsmen with the short pitched stuff even if that's not what the team wants.

[Shaka]

Well for me it's just a case of grooming 3 from 4 as from what I've seen of Rao hasn't impressed me much, although I know Zainub rates him...and to be fair she's probably seen more of him than me. I'd probably go for Sami and Shoaib to be regulars in both forms of the game as they provide the extra firepower which you sometimes need to finish teams off. The 3rd seamer would be a toss up between Gul and Shabbir - both have their strengths. Gul gets the extra lift and seam movement and he's pretty accurate as well. It's quite possible to set a 7-2 offside field to him and you know he'll keep it on off stump.

Shabbir again gets the lift and movement, and he can also swing the old ball. He's a very talented bowler but he's not consistent enough for me. Gul seems to have a better attitude and with not much to choose between the two I'd be tempted to go for Gul. But they are both good seam bowlers and you could make a case for either one.

Naved and Azhar would only come into the reckoning in the ODI team as both are allrounders. I think we have enough already with Afridi, Razzaq and Malik so i would go for the specialist bowler every time. I think Gul and Shabbir are significantly better bowlers than both Azhar or Naved.

[Shaka]

Originally Posted by Rachael

OK.. I've long been sceptical of Sami... happy to go along with a popular characterisation of him as a classic instance of what Boycott calls a "show pony": I know the kid is young... and still learning his trade.. and I'm not sure the term is warranted in his case... but I have rarely heard anyone say much to convince me otherwise.

Would you care to put the case FOR Sami? To suggest why he's in your long-term dream Test outfit?

Ok that's a fair question as Sami's form has fluctuated recently, but he generally follows a poor performance with a pretty good one so it becomes difficult to drop him! He has a lot of attributes, a good away swinger with the new ball, and he can get them to come back in quite sharply as well. Allied to his aggression and speed he's got plenty going for him. I don't know if you recall he took 15 0r 16 wickets in one game playing for Kent this season. He can be really destructive when everything clicks. the problem remains lack of consistency but I don't think we are getting that from any of our bowlers, Gul apart, so who do we drop and who do we play?

One other thing I should mention is you always get 100% from Sami although i accept it's not always channeled very effectively. In the scorching heat against India when Shoaib was wilting against the Indian batsmen, Sami kept at them and eventually earned his reward even after having a couple of catches put down.

[Maranello]

Rachael

Fair comment, but IMO he does not pitch it short often enough to be called a proper show-pony! Moreover, I would say its due to lack of consistency / experience, and not because of unwillingness to bowl to a plan. When given guidance by wiser heads, he definitely is a better bowler.

His strengths are that he has control, and can definitely swing the ball both ways at pace. Also, he is "very skiddy", having a low-arm action ("sling-shot") means that yorkers can be quite effective - conversely, if he bowls short, it does get hit around the park. On rare occasions I have seen him move it off the seam too but that is not his strength.

He should be in the longer term strategy since he is young, is palpably a team man with a big heart. Sort of Darren Gough in his commitment, but with genuine pace.

Sami does bowl more than his fair share of no-balls and wides, which in ODIs put undue pressure on him. In Tests, the wides would not be called, and the occasional no-ball will not be as big an issue.

He is also an excellent fielder and can develop into a decent Test no.7 or no.8 batsman, though I am loathe to select Test strike bowlers based solely on how they bat or field!

In summary, he is by no means the finished article, and needs to develop a lot over the next year or two. But he has enough genuine talent to be given a decent run under Woolmer. He has only played 15 tests, and yes 39 wickets are not enough (and a trifle expensive at 47 rpw!), but he has 2 five-fors, both in away tests vs the Kiwis, including a MoM. Bowling with someone like Shoaib is probably hard for a young guy anyway - unlike Wasim or Aqib Javed, Shoaib does not mentor his younger strike partners. In fact, I feel Sami bowls better when Shoaib is either not playing at all, or at the very least, is not bowling from the other end!

Just checked his cricinfo profile, which augments some of the above:

"One of a new generation of Pakistan fast bowlers, Mohammad Sami forced his way into the Test team with outstanding performances in domestic cricket and had an immediate impact in his first Test with five wickets against New Zealand. Then, in only his third Test, he notched a hat-trick, eking out the last three Sri Lankans in the Asian Test Championship final. From a shortish run-up and high action he generates surprising pace, consistently around the 90mph mark. He also quickly mastered traditional outswing and yorker-length reverse-swing. Sami has a slight build for a fast bowler and once he fills out he should be nudging the speedometer even higher. After a disappointing series against India, his bowling average is in the mid-40s, but Pakistan have high hopes for him, and believe that his bowling will consistently win them matches. "
Kamran Abbasi

[Shaka]

Originally Posted by Maranello

Rachael

In summary, he is by no means the finished article, and needs to develop a lot over the next year or two. But he has enough genuine talent to be given a decent run under Woolmer. He has only played 15 tests, and yes 39 wickets are not enough (and a trifle expensive at 47 rpw!), but he has 2 five-fors, both in away tests vs the Kiwis, including a MoM.

Those figures are a concern. He needs to start converting ability into wickets in the bag. With his ability to swing the ball away I think he should be picking up more wickets with the new ball and that's something he should look at. He beats the bat with the odd beauty but he doesn't probe consistently enough for me.

[Maranello]

Agreed, though Pakistani slip-catching makes it harder for new-ball bowlers to bag any edges...!

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Maranello

His strengths are that he has control, and can definitely swing the ball both ways at pace. Also, he is "very skiddy", having a low-arm action ("sling-shot") means that yorkers can be quite effective - conversely, if he bowls short, it does get hit around the park. On rare occasions I have seen him move it off the seam too but that is not his strength.

He should be in the longer term strategy since he is young, is palpably a team man with a big heart. Sort of Darren Gough in his commitment, but with genuine pace

What I take from your coments AND from Shaka's comments is that Sami might almost be worth his place ahead of considerably better bowlers in the way that Matthew Hoggard and Ashley Giles would be worth their places above beter bowlers: they are all the sort of team men who help the team as a whole to punch above its weight.

Allied to an ability to move the ball each way (something I rate pretty highly) and relative youth and inexpeience.. I'm happy that he's a beter prospect than I'd been led to believe. The one thing that sets alarm bells ringing, though, is the comment I highlighted above.

Fidel Edwards is often said to have a skiddy, round arm action.. and all and sundry worry that when he's timing is anything less than perfect he'll struggle to get his line right. Is Sami likely to have a lifelong problem with consistency due to an unorthodox action.. or is this youthful wildness going to give way to something far, far more impressive?

I always fear for the guys who have to find their rhythm and get things absolutely right to be effective: they so frequently prove such a liability when things ain't clicking. Is that a fair characterisation of Sami? If he's the future of cricket in Pakistan.. I hope not!

[Shaka]

Originally Posted by Maranello

Agreed, though Pakistani slip-catching makes it harder for new-ball bowlers to bag any edges...!

They aren't as bad as all that...I think we are pretty well off there in fact! Inzi's been snaffling them for years now, Younis Khan is ok in there, and taufeeq when he plays is a sensational slip catcher.

One other thing that doesn't help the likes of Sami is the amount of bowling they have to do in unhelpful conditions. It's not easy bagging wickets at home especially with the decline of reverse swing.

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Shaka

They aren't as bad as all that...I think we are pretty well off there in fact! Inzi's been snaffling them for years now, Younis Khan is ok in there, and taufeeq when he plays is a sensational slip catcher.

One other thing that doesn't help the likes of Sami is the amount of bowling they have to do in unhelpful conditions. It's not easy bagging wickets at home especially with the decline of reverse swing.

I was merely being facetious, I agree it is not as bad as it has been, though I have seen Taufiq drop a sitter or two (but then who doesn't). Inzi is definitely class.

About home conditions..well Pakistan did experiment with green-tops in the early 1990s (against Sri Lanka) when Wasim, Waqar and Aqib were around..they did ok, but our batters really struggled!