Waqar Younis - was he really that good?

[imaginarydiva]

Originally Posted by shafiq ali

comparing Ambrose to Waqar is like comparing the spice girls to the beetles.

Hey!Thats a horrible comparison!LOL.In myopinion Waqar and Ambrose were both equally good.Both of them had the same value in their team.They spear headed their respective team attacks for quite somtime.You really cant under-rate Ambrose.

[Shaka]

Originally Posted by shafiq ali

comparing Ambrose to Waqar is like comparing the spice girls to the beetles

Waqar was much more talented than Ambrose even post injury - Waqar at his 5 year peak was much better than Hadlee adn much more dangerous - its mainly people living in England who have this prespective that Ambrose adn hadlee were better than Waqar

Waqar never had a 5 year peak. His peak was before his back injury - a period of maybe a year. After that he was good but relied almost exclusively on reverse swing, of which he was undoubtedly the master. His effectiveness with the new ball was reduced so much that Aaqib Javed was often given the opening overs in his place.

Ambrose, like Imran Khan, very rarely got punished;Waqar if he was slightly off song was quite often treated severely by batsmen although he often came back to have the final say, being a competitor to his core.

[shafiq ali]

Waqar never had a 5 year peak.

I find that amusing, as from 1991 to 1996 Waqar was mainly the number one bowling in ratings and was breaking many records!!!

His effectiveness with the new ball was reduced so much that Aaqib Javed was often given the opening overs in his place.

Please actually try to find out the truth of this matter isntead of just assuming. There were 3 bowlers who had to be accomodated, Wasim,Waqar and Aqib, Waqar was new and Imran preferrd him at first change as he hit batsmen with pace and venom at 3 even before his back injury and even during his debut!!!!! Please dont assume things. Aqib was a great outswing bowler and Waqar could also do this to good affect. After Waqars injury when Waqar started to knock over world batsmen again it was Aqib who was first change mainly during and after 1992!!! Please dont assume things without not knowing the truth.

[Shaka]

Originally Posted by shafiq ali

I find that amusing, as from 1991 to 1996 Waqar was mainly the number one bowling in ratings and was breaking many records!!!


Please actually try to find out the truth of this matter isntead of just assuming. There were 3 bowlers who had to be accomodated, Wasim,Waqar and Aqib, Waqar was new and Imran preferrd him at first change as he hit batsmen with pace and venom at 3 even before his back injury and even during his debut!!!!! Please dont assume things. Aqib was a great outswing bowler and Waqar could also do this to good affect. After Waqars injury when Waqar started to knock over world batsmen again it was Aqib who was first change mainly during and after 1992!!! Please dont assume things without not knowing the truth.

I don't know why you assume I am assuming things. I did get to see a lot of Waqar bowling and anyone who thinks he was the same bowler after his injury can't have seen him before then. On his comeback from injury, Waqar was not as good with the new ball, and in fact only started using his outswinger once his pace had deteriorated...mainly in his second comeback after having been dropped from the side for a lengthy period.

[Milo]

I know this isn't a thread about Ambrose, but apart from his debut test innings in 1988, he never conceded 100 runs in another test innings. During this time he often bowl well in excess of 30 overs an innings. In addition, he only ever had figures of 1-75 or worse and 0-60 (or worse) on 5 occasions. Compare this with Younis who had two 1-96s in the same series in 92 and bought up individual centuries on no fewer than 12 occasions. Most of his 5-fors were expensive (in fact only 7 conceded fewer than 60 runs) and he would be the last player you would want in your team if the opposition were trying to score 150 to win fourth up.

Ambrose was inside the PWC top 5 for over 10 continuous years and was number one for all but nine months between 1992-1997. This is the period our friend here would try to have us believe Younis was continually world number one.

[shafiq ali]

Waqar post back injury was still better than Ambrose and co with no injury -

yes Waqar was number one bowler from 1992-1996 predominantly in the ratings

shaka dont get too obsessed over Waqar not being same bowler after injury as fact is he was still more than a handful after his injury and still more feared and dangerous than any of his peers like ambrose - he broke records after his back injury

[shafiq ali]

Waqar was not as good with the new ball,

Imran rarely gave him the new ball before his back injury so i find that comment strange. Aqib took the new ball with wasim even on waqars debut.

[Andy Mellon]

You know that at the PwC Ratings website, you can go to the ratings wizard which will plot a graph showing the ratings of two players against each other

http://www.pwcratings.com/cricket/cricket.htm

Having just plotted a graph of Curtly Ambrose against Waqar Younis, it is clear to see that from 1989-1993, Ambrose is ranked higher. From 1993-1995 they are very close in terms of PwC points, swapping positions repeatedly and from 1995-2000 (when Ambrose retired) Ambrose was well ahead. Waqar's rating peaked at 909 points against Zimbabwe at Rawalpindi in 1993. Ambrose's peak was 912 points 1994 against England at Port of Spain. Ambrose had over 900 points for 3 series (away to Australia in 1993, home to Pakistan in 1994 and away to England in 1994). Similarly, Waqar peaked over 900 points for 4 series in 1993-94 vs Zimbabwe, New Zealand, Sri Lanka and for the start of Australia's tour to Pakistan in 1994.

By the end of 1995, Waqar was down to only 719 points whilst Ambrose was on 864.

Not only that, but Ambrose was a decent batsman as well. I'm not saying that Waqar was a bunny, but Ambrose was in my opinion a better batsman.

From the above ratings, Waqar was never significantly better than Ambrose. Ambrose certainly maintained a high consistent level for much longer than Waqar. Personally, I liked to see both of them play - there's nothing quite like watching Waqar tear out the middle stump of a languishing English batsman with one of his patented late inswinging yorkers. However, the ratings evidence tends to bear out Milo and Shaka in that Waqar's peak was for a short time from 1992-94. From Sri Lanka's tour to Pakistan in 1992 until Australia's tour of Pakistan in 1994 - Ambrose and Waqar were slugging it out for the #1 bowlers spot. Apart from that, Ambrose was undisputedly higher ranked than Waqar.

You wanted the rankings evidence, well - there it is! Hope that helps!

[Maranello]

I agree with Shaka and Milo here, the Waqar Younis of 1990-91 was a rare sight in all my years of watching cricket, I have not seen Roberts or Holding at their peaks, but I am sure they would have struggled to reach the heights Waqar consistently did on all types of tracks for that year and a half. However, he was not same bowler after his return, and the statistics, the subjective opinions of those who watched him, and the scores racked up by opposing teams all attest to this. Shaka will know what I mean when I say that there is no rational argument that will change this Waqar Younis fetish amongst some Pakistani fans!

Sure, Waqar was instrumental in initiating many collapses, and getting a team from 350-2 to 400 all out. But if we so good, why were the opposition on 350 for 2 in the first place? Ambrose was the best bowler of the 1990s, I don't think many who have seen Test cricket properly would disagree. Hence, with him bowling, teams would seldom get to 350-2. So what if Waqar initiated more collapses when he could reverse swing the ball on day 2; for the first day and a bit, it was the same Waqar who would leak runs

Some of Waqar's admirers make it sound like when he and Wasim bowler, Pakistan always won Tests and all teams were out for 200! Pakistan lost many important Tests in that time (that is nature of sport after all) and often teams racked up big scores against us, since our attack was not always the best suited to all conditions. Yes, when it was reverse swinging, Waqar was unplayable, but what about the rest of time?

One last point, on the rankings: Waqar was not top of any ratings for five years; the last time ever that he was World No.1 was 24th Feb 1994 after the Christchurch Test against NZL. After this, he was no. 2 for his next five Tests only, but never reached those heights again in the rankings.

In fact, Waqar fell to no.4 in Nov 1995, and for the next eight years was below even World no.4. To put it into perspective, no.4 is Akhtar's current ranking, and Shoaib has been there or thereabouts for 2 years now. So for the last eight years of his career (1995-2003), Waqar was not even as good as Akhtar has been in the past two (in the rankings anyway) and we are saying Waqar was better than Ambrose, the most feared bowler of his generation?

There are stats aplenty to back up our arguments, for instance, Waqar's and Ambrose's respective records against all the countries they both played against - Ambrose outperforms Waqar on all counts against all the key opponents, and has a much better overall record. Waqar, was great in patches, and during the early 1990s often produced a memorable spell; however these were interspersed with regular mediocre performances too, when batsmen got on top of him. When did anyone ever get on top of Wasim or Ambrose like that?

[shafiq ali]

Its amazing how some of you guys love your stats. Your are so obsessed with them thats its not even funny anymore.

Any neutral pundit or fan would agree that Waqar was the more talented,more dangerous and more brutal bowler between he and Ambrose regardless of the pcw ratings - remember ratings dont tell full story - like missing matches,injuries,situations etc etc

Ambrose was the best bowler of the 1990s, I

LOLL to that remark. Dont say this on any main cricket forum, either on the bbc or any mainstream cricekt forum. They will give you a good hiding for it - even if you claim that Ambrose was better than Waqar they will laugh at you - even if you bring in your beloved stats to back this up they will laugh as stats dont tell the full story at all.

When did anyone ever get on top of Wasim or Ambrose like that?

They were differnt tyopes of bowlers - i can remember many occasions when Wasim was made to look ordianry in test matches too. this peak word was not 1990 -1991 1 yr that wasnt his peak - Waqar had barely cut his teeth into international cricket - Waqars peak started from that England tour right down to the last English 1996 tour and after than injury and other things hellped him back but still this Sultan of Swing won us many matche by himself