J. Kallis in his true light.

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

I can handle Truth, just don't feel that by creating your own ratings system you are going to reach it..

So tell me what is wrong with the ICC ratings, why do you feel you have to create your own lesser ratings?

"Your handicap" rating gets your favourite player to the top of the list, what does that say about your system?

The fact is that a 100 against Bangladesh should not be rated with the same value as a 100 against Aus. Anyone with any common sense can see that - stats only tell part of any story.

Any way - I couldn't care less about finding a system that will prove who is better than who, if we could find a system of deciding that then this board would be very dull.

In my opion Kallis is not even the best all-rounder in his own team, let alone the world, that is my opinon. Just beacuse it differs from yours does not mean it is wrong...

Continue..............

End of Series no 11.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 724.28 (53-6-1979)
Bowling Handycap: 674.82 (4052-1632-56)
All Rounders Handycap: 699.55

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1006.59 (79-9-4098)
Bowling Handycap: 549.72 (8906-3431-98)
All Rounders Handycap: 778.16

Difference in Batting handycaps: +282.31 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +125.10 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +78.61 for SOBERS

End of Series no 12.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 737.37 (56-7-2115)
Bowling Handycap: 699.54 (4268-1711-61)
All Rounders Handycap: 718.46

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 969.41 (89-10-4450)
Bowling Handycap: 542.94 (10061-3921-110)
All Rounders Handycap: 756.18

Difference in Batting handycaps: +232.04 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +156.60 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +37.72 for SOBERS

End of Series no 13.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 721.33 (62-7-2306)
Bowling Handycap: 691.80 (4590-1847-65)
All Rounders Handycap: 706.57

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1034.36 (97-11-5172)
Bowling Handycap: 558.23 (11679-4466-130)
All Rounders Handycap: 796.30

Difference in Batting handycaps: +313.03 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +133.57 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +89.73 for SOBERS

End of Series no 14.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 753.26 (67-8-2593)
Bowling Handycap: 672.56 (5069-2052-70)
All Rounders Handycap: 712.91

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1056.88 (102-13-5514)
Bowling Handycap: 573.08 (12610-4816-144)
All Rounders Handycap: 814.98

Difference in Batting handycaps: +303.62 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +99.48 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +102.07 for SOBERS

***Note***Sobers become the 1st player ever to pass 800.00 rating points as an All Rounder in Testmatch Cricket.

End of Series no 15.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 733.33 (71-8-2685)
Bowling Handycap: 670.57 (5351-2185-74)
All Rounders Handycap: 701.95

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1077.35 (111-16-6059)
Bowling Handycap: 563.90 (14007-5324-157)
All Rounders Handycap: 820.63

***Note***Sobers's 820.63 is still the Highest All Rounders handycap point in history (Kallis's 810.21 at the end of his 31st Series is still his Highest All Rounders handycap point)

Difference in Batting handycaps: +344.02 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +106.67 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +118.68 for SOBERS

End of Series no 16.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 706.11 (81-9-2952)
Bowling Handycap: 712.00 (6489-2580-94)
All Rounders Handycap: 709.06

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1062.14 (121-16-6556)
Bowling Handycap: 557.19 (15656-6057-175)
All Rounders Handycap: 809.67

Difference in Batting handycaps: +356.03 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +154.81 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +100.61 for SOBERS

End of Series no 17.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 784.19 (84-12-3340)
Bowling Handycap: 711.30 (6687-2671-97)
All Rounders Handycap: 747.75

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1027.84 (126-16-6626)
Bowling Handycap: 551.05 (16496-6358-182)
All Rounders Handycap: 789.45

Difference in Batting handycaps: +243.65 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +160.25 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +41.70 for SOBERS

End of Series no 18.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 801.37 (88-14-3542)
Bowling Handycap: 702.17 (7037-2879-102)
All Rounders Handycap: 751.77

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1004.35 (132-17-6776)
Bowling Handycap: 555.82 (17366-6676-193)
All Rounders Handycap: 780.09

Difference in Batting handycaps: +202.98 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +146.35 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +28.32 for SOBERS

End of Series no 19.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 802.34 (94-15-3787)
Bowling Handycap: 678.21 (7457-3145-106)
All Rounders Handycap: 740.28

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1018.75 (142-19-7373)
Bowling Handycap: 553.05 (18680-7077-205)
All Rounders Handycap: 785.90

Difference in Batting handycaps: +216.41 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +125.16 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +45.62 for SOBERS

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

But how many matches will he play. He may pick up a back problem and not bowl again!

I still don't get what you have based this handicap on? Your posts don't make a huge amount of sense, and it doesn't help me in taking it seriously when you keep throwing out comments like

"Kallis is King"

So without all the Kallis loving stuff, what does your system actually do?

You also have to admit that a 100 vs Bangladesh should never be rated is highly as a 100 vs Oz, surely?

Continue........

End of Series no 20.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 791.05 (100-16-3971)
Bowling Handycap: 684.24 (7985-3518-117)
All Rounders Handycap: 737.65

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 997.25 (150-20-7626)
Bowling Handycap: 551.25 (19766-7409-215)
All Rounders Handycap: 774.25

Difference in Batting handycaps: +206.20 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +132.99 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +36.60 for SOBERS

End of Series no 21.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 825.47 (102-18-4185)
Bowling Handycap: 706.22 (8198-3613-124)
All Rounders Handycap: 765.85

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1005.03 (155-21-7932)
Bowling Handycap: 553.44 (20259-7578-221)
All Rounders Handycap: 779.24

Difference in Batting handycaps: +179.56 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +152.78 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +13.39 for SOBERS

End of Series no 22.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 830.95 (105-18-4350)
Bowling Handycap: 729.09 (8547-3798-134)
All Rounders Handycap: 780.02

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 983.53 (160-21-8032)
Bowling Handycap: 554.91 (21599-7999-235)
All Rounders Handycap: 769.22

Difference in Batting handycaps: +152.58 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +174.18 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +10.80 for KALLIS

***Note*** KALLIS GO PASS SOBERS FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER (780.02 to 769.22).

End of Series no 23.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 839.29 (107-18-4486)
Bowling Handycap: 723.51 (8793-3919-137)
All Rounders Handycap: 781.40

Difference in Batting handycaps: +144.24 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +168.60 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +12.18 for KALLIS

End of Series no 24.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 823.63 (113-18-4674)
Bowling Handycap: 735.24 (9474-4281-151)
All Rounders Handycap: 779.44

Difference in Batting handycaps: +159.90 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +180.33 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +10.22 for KALLIS

End of Series no 25.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 809.89 (117-18-4774)
Bowling Handycap: 715.62 (9864-4456-153)
All Rounders Handycap: 762.76

Difference in Batting handycaps: +173.64 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +160.71 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +6.46 for SOBERS

End of Series no 26.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 889.87 (123-20-5486)
Bowling Handycap: 691.90 (10500-4777-158)
All Rounders Handycap: 790.89

Difference in Batting handycaps: +93.66 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +136.99 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +21.67 for KALLIS

End of Seies no 27.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 903.33 (129-21-5840)
Bowling Handycap: 689.65 (10836-4960-163)
All Rounders Handycap: 796.49

Difference in Batting handycaps: +80.20 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +134.74 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +27.27 for KALLIS

End of Series no 28.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 896.62 (133-22-5967)
Bowling Handycap: 684.21 (11118-5094-166)
All Rounders Handycap: 790.42

Difference in Batting handycaps: +86.91 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +129.30 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +21.20 for KALLIS

End of Series no 29.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 906.94 (137-23-6208)
Bowling Handycap: 684.21 (11118-5094-166)
All Rounders Handycap: 795.58

Difference in Batting handycaps: +76.59 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +129.30 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +26.36 for KALLIS

End of Series no 30.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 927.77 (147-24-6833)
Bowling Handycap: 663.89 (11694-5397-170)
All Rounders Handycap: 795.83

Difference in Batting handycaps: +55.76 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +108.98 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +26.61 for KALLIS

End of Series no 31.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 929.11 (149-24-6945)
Bowling Handycap: 691.13 (11993-5503-181)
All Rounders Handycap: 810.12

Difference in Batting handycaps: +54.42 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +136.22 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +40.90 for KALLIS

***Note***Kallis pass 800.00 handycap points as an All Rounder for the first time.

End of Series no 32.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 947.32 (155-26-7337)
Bowling Handycap: 666.21 (12557-5783-183)
All Rounders Handycap: 806.77

Difference in Batting handycaps: +36.21 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +111.30 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +37.55 for KALLIS

End of Series no 33.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 948.25 (157-27-7420)
Bowling Handycap: 666.10 (12617-5821-184)
All Rounders Handycap: 807.18

Difference in Batting handycaps: +35.28 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +111.19 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +37.96 for KALLIS

Some "vital Statistics":

*Biggest margin between Batting handycaps: +558.08 for SOBERS
*Smallest margin between Batting handycaps: +35.28 for SOBERS
*Current margin between Batting handycaps: +35.28 for SOBERS

*Biggest margin between Bowling handycaps: +284.40 for KALLIS
*Smallest margin between Bowling handycaps: +99.48 for KALLIS
*Current margin between Bowling handycaps: +111.19 for KALLIS

*Biggest margin between All Rounder's handycaps: for SOBERS = +118.68
*Biggest margin between All Rounder's handycaps: for KALLIS = +40.90
*Current margin between All Rounder's handycaps: +37.96 for KALLIS

***************ALL RATINGS AS AT 14/10/2005***************************

CASE CLOSED (for now at least)

***Note*** This page will be updated after every end of a Test Series Kallis played in.

[flanflinger]

Mate,

Another long Post whicn makes no sense whatsoever!

I have been in Marketing most of my life. I know how to sell something. All I am saying is you may have unearthed a good system for acccesing players, but you don't sell it very well.

Can you write a post that simply explains the system, for people like me who cannot take in pages and pages of text.

I would also like to know what the Handicap is based on, at the momenet I am basing it on the fact if your name is begins with the letter K and are South African your handicap is quite low...

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

***Note*** KALLIS GO PASS SOBERS FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER (780.02 to 769.22).

but surely this was due purely down to batting form.

At the moment Kallis is second in the ICC's Test All-Rounder ratings, the reason is beacuse he happens to bowl (a bit) but has a huge batting rating.

I get the feeling this is the same as your ratings.

You can use Stats all you like, but as I don't feel Kallis is a proper all-rounder (would he really get in the side just on his bowling alone - I don't think so) then I think that the stats are skewed by phenominal batting alone?

[admin]

Why not compare players based on what they achieved in the same number of matches played?

Sobers played 93 matches. The two players are compared after 93 matches:

Bowling:     Mat  Balls Runs   W    BBI   BBM    Ave    Econ   SR   5 10

Kallis       93  12557  5783  183  6/54   9/92   31.60  2.76  68.6  4  0
Sobers       93  21599  7999  235  6/73   8/80   34.03  2.22  91.9  6  0

Batting:     Mat  I   NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3    Ave  100  50  Ducks

Kallis       93  155  26  7337 189* 177  162   56.87  22  37   9
Sobers       93  160  21  8032 365* 226  198   57.78  26  30  12

Sobers is the better player because he bowled more overs taking more wickets and then backed up as a batsman hitting more runs. Sobers hit more centuries. It is clear he was "involved" in the game to a greater degree than Kallis. His side depended on him more than South Africa depended on Kallis to take wickets or score runs.

[flanflinger]

Admin,

Handicap or no Handicap system, finally some stats that make sense!!

[admin]

Sobers mainly batted at 5 or 6 compared to Kallis who batted mainly at 3 or 4. This is hardly surprising given the extra overs Sobers was required to bowl. He was skilled enough to bat higher but was forced to bat lower in order to get some rest between innings.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

It's not my fault that Kallis is better than Sobers

If you'd ever taken the time to actually watch them play, then you would never have even made this statement frankly.

Garfield Sobers is the greatest all round cricketer that has ever set foot on this Earth.

[flanflinger]

Ninj,

Tottaly with you here- all to often we have been told stats are the key... but I agree with you, watch the guys plays and then use the stats. The fact is that Kallis is not even an all-rounder so to say he is better than Sobers is absurd.

Then to find a system that "proves" it is even more absurd!!

I would take Sobers before Kallis anyday...

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

I say stop wasting your time, use the ICC's it is a lot easier- and more accurate

I find myself somewhat at odds with that statement FF.

Steve Harmison came from a no-hope (well, at least "also-ran") bowler to number one in the ratings after dismantling a very poor West Indian team in the Caribbean. Somewhere along the line there has to be a better rating system to include the standard of the opposition.

And I know that there appears to be one, given that a century against Bangladesh on a belter scores about a tenth of the points of a century on a sticky-dog against Australia... but nevertheless, more should be taken into account.

If the West Indies were assumed to be halfway decent at the beginning of the series... then by the time Harmison had humbled them with that astonishing seven-fer their level should have dropped well away, according to the ratings system. But it didn't thereby rendering Harmison with an anomalous number one.

He just isn't that good, and I don't believe there are too many Englishmen out there who really consider that he is.

I'm not sure if the ratings account for playing against a current Sri-Lanka side on a turning wicket without Muralitharan, as opposed to a side with him... I rather suspect not.

There must be a way to do it... and granted that it would be more work... (at the touch of the button to yet another computer sub-routine) but I don't think the current method is quite right... yet.

Very nearly though.