J. Kallis in his true light.

[John]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

his, but Kallis is way past it as an allrounder, maybe on facts he is, but in the real world he isn't,

I really don't understand statements like this. Yes Kallis bowling days are behind him agreed. In the real world he has got over 180 Test wickets now as far as I know that makes him a Test and one day arena an allrounder. For a while he opened the one day bowling in the ODI's.

So as far as I can see the classification as allrounder applies to him. That his bowling has gone is only relevant in the here and now but it does not negate that for many years he was part of SA bowling attack. And therefore his classification as an allrounder stands. There should be no argument here its just tilting at windmills trying to look for some new perspective on whats an allrounder ie he is allrounder here but not here etc. The question is whats his overall career tell you? The answer is easy.

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

Mere mortals in my opinion though. You've put a grand amount of work in to this, but Kallis is way past it as an allrounder, maybe on facts he is, but in the real world he isn't, and I think a team of:

Strauss, Fleming, Ponting, Sarwan, Gibbs, Flintoff, Sangakkara, Streak, Warne, Simon Jones and Chaminda Vaas/Steve Harmison would be a massive match for your side. Add Kevin Pietersen and alot of new players, and I think there are a few anomalies. Your stats would be good at looking at these players at the end of their careers. Not during them though.

Far more than a 'grand amount'. In fact, all Test and ODI players ever with 500+ runs (batsmen),25+ wickets(bowlers) & All Rounders with 25+/500+.Like i always say: "Stats don't tell the whole story, it tells THE ONLY STORY"

Well, let us look at your team.In real live, maybe once in a 150 years. On paper ?, don't count on it.

AJ Strauss. 897.25
SP Fleming. 691.94
RT Ponting. 942.28
RR Sarwan. 720.25
HH Gibbs. 839.17
A Flintoff. 600.66 / 678.80
KC Sangakkara. 851.19
HH Streak. 346.21 / 737.64
SK Warne. 813.29
SP Jones. 856.09
SJ Harmison. 787.96

Team's batting Handycap: 866.41
Team's Bowling Handycap: 829.24
Team's Overall Handycap: 847.83

*Way off Broer, but maybe in a 150 years*

If you think Kallis is way past it as an All Rounder, it's your opinion.Kallis don't have to bowl 40 overs/Testmatch to prove anything.He must just take it match by match, and will end up with 300+ Test wickets and something like 14000+ Testruns( We will get back to this point in about 6/7 years time, won't we ).

********DON'T MISS MY ALL TIME CRICKET RATINGS FOR TEST & ODI CRICKET ON THE INTERNATIONAL BOARD ON MONDAY**********

The as at dates will be:
Test Cricket: 14/10/2005.
ODI Cricket: 09/10/2005.

Mooi man.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

If you think Kallis is way past it as an All Rounder, it's your opinion.Kallis don't have to bowl 40 overs/Testmatch to prove anything.He must just take it match by match, and will end up with 300+ Test wickets and something like 14000+ Testruns( We will get back to this point in about 6/7 years time, won't we ).

That depends on how many tests he plays and whether he gets his wish not to bowl anymore.

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

********DON'T MISS MY ALL TIME CRICKET RATINGS FOR TEST & ODI CRICKET ON THE INTERNATIONAL BOARD ON MONDAY**********

Ohhh can't wait for more!!

Seriously basing ratings on averages does not work, because as stated a 5 wicket haul against Bangladesh counts the same as a getting the Australian or Indian top 5 out, it is basically pointless.

I say stop wasting your time, use the ICC's it is a lot easier- and more accurate

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

That depends on how many tests he plays and whether he gets his wish not to bowl anymore.


Ohhh can't wait for more!!

Seriously basing ratings on averages does not work, because as stated a 5 wicket haul against Bangladesh counts the same as a getting the Australian or Indian top 5 out, it is basically pointless.

I say stop wasting your time, use the ICC's it is a lot easier- and more accurate

@flanflinger.....Even if Kallis don't bowl a ball from now on, he will still be the best in 'his game' at the end of his career.The reason is because his bowling handycap will stays the same, while his batting handycap will go up or down, but in Kallis's case, more up's then down's in the past 4/5 years.

Does it make Ponting a better batsmen than Kallis because he average 51 against RSA and Kallis 34 against AUS ?, or does it make Kallis a better batsmen because he average 47 against England and Ponting 41 ? or Kallis 214.00(well don't have an average, still to be dismissed by them) and Ponting 34 against Bangladesh ? Nobody will know, thats why there's a thing called stats. It's a Never Ending Truth and we can't do anything about it.

O, last but not least, don't worry about my time. If you can't handle the Truth and don't like what you read, DON'T READ IT.

For the rest here, something to go and sleep(meditate) on..............Who was the best between them:

Barrington or Hammond ?
Dravid or Tendulkar ?
GS Chappell or Hayden ?
Miandad or Gavaskar ?
SR Waugh or Border ?
Langer or Lloyd ?
Boycott or Chanderpaul ?
Sutcliffe or Weekes ?
RG Pollock or Headley ?
Barry Richards or S Barnes ?
Dempster or Taslim Arif ?

Marshall or Younis ?
Donald or McGrath ?
Hadlee or Ambrose ?
Murali or Warne ? ( Well we all know, don't we )
Garner or Holding ?
Gough or Thomson ?
Lohmann or SF Barnes ?
Briggs or Turner ?
Akhtar or Croft ?
Harmison or Hoggard ?
Ferris or Trott ?
Procter or W Barnes ?
Bissett or Bond ?

Kallis or Sobers ? ( Well we all know, don't we )
Khan or Miller ?
Shaun Pollock or Flintoff ?
Faulkner or Asif Iqbal ?

Till next time

Mooi man !

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

If you can't handle the Truth and don't like what you read, DON'T READ IT.

I can handle Truth, just don't feel that by creating your own ratings system you are going to reach it..

So tell me what is wrong with the ICC ratings, why do you feel you have to create your own lesser ratings?

"Your handicap" rating gets your favourite player to the top of the list, what does that say about your system?

The fact is that a 100 against Bangladesh should not be rated with the same value as a 100 against Aus. Anyone with any common sense can see that - stats only tell part of any story.

Any way - I couldn't care less about finding a system that will prove who is better than who, if we could find a system of deciding that then this board would be very dull.

In my opion Kallis is not even the best all-rounder in his own team, let alone the world, that is my opinon. Just beacuse it differs from yours does not mean it is wrong...

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

@flanflinger....There's nothing wrong with the ICC ratings, the All Time Cricket ratings & ICC ratings are two TOTALY DIFFERENT RATING SYSTEMS. The All Time Cricket ratings is about a player's career stats( and not current form ), where as the ICC ratings are ratings witch concentrate on a players form(a Form-rating system).

It's not my fault that "my favourite players"(according to you) are on Top. Do you think if i was an Australian or English surporter that the rating-system will favourite more Aus & Eng. players ??????? LOL. It's not my fault that Kallis is better than Sobers & Murali better than Warnie & Ponting than Hayden(for the timebeing at least).

Untill later then O, just between us, even if Kallis score 12 ducks in his next 12 inn., he will still have a better Handycap than Sobers ( 769.59 to 769.22 ).But don't bet on itt !!!!!

[Paoli]

Originally Posted by John

I really don't understand statements like this. Yes Kallis bowling days are behind him agreed. In the real world he has got over 180 Test wickets now as far as I know that makes him a Test and one day arena an allrounder. For a while he opened the one day bowling in the ODI's.

So as far as I can see the classification as allrounder applies to him. That his bowling has gone is only relevant in the here and now but it does not negate that for many years he was part of SA bowling attack.

No doubt Kallis once was a good bowler...but at the moment, I definitely wouldn't have him in my team as the allrounder, therefore I think South Africa are better off using Jacques as a specialist batsman, and looking for a bowling allrounder replacement.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

It's not my fault that Kallis is better than Sobers & Murali better than Warnie & Ponting than Hayden(for the timebeing at least).

Yes it is, who created the handicap?

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

Untill later then O, just between us, even if Kallis score 12 ducks in his next 12 inn., he will still have a better Handycap than Sobers ( 769.59 to 769.22 ).But don't bet on itt !!!!!

As stated your problem relies on the fact that Averages do not take into account who you are playing against and what the conditions were. As a ratings system that means they are likely to not prove anything more than averages already do...

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

therefore I think South Africa are better off using Jacques as a specialist batsman, and looking for a bowling allrounder replacement.

Paoli,

With you here mate.

Kallis should concentrate on scoring as many runs as possible and only bowl when he needs to. His bowling is not strong enough (IMO) and is really just a fill in because they don't have a spinner.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

It's not my fault that Kallis is better than Sobers

Lets look at simple stats

13 games - 768 Runs - Average 34.90 - 1 hundred

Not great stats eh....

Best all-rounder ever vs the best team at the time....http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?s...lds=vie wtype

This is why your system has a fault...