J. Kallis in his true light.

[John]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

No doubt Kallis once was a good bowler...but at the moment, I definitely wouldn't have him in my team as the allrounder, therefore I think South Africa are better off using Jacques as a specialist batsman, and looking for a bowling allrounder replacement.

For once we seem to be agreed on this. Yes Kallis proabably for over eighteen months now has effectively been a specialist batsmen. Hopefully he will stop bowling now because we need senior batsmen for the next four years while waiting for youngsters to develop.

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

@flanflinger....iv'e created the handycaps yes, but sorry, it's Sobers and Warne's fault that they are not better than Kallis and Murali, not mine. The handycaps do count for them too you know, not only for the one and not the other.

Like i already explained above, you win some, you lose some. It's exacly the same if you 'win' or 'lose' some against good teams as it is to 'win' some or 'lose' some against bad teams. It does not make Ponting a bad players cuz his average against Bangladesh is only 34.No broer, WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND.Kallis 34.9 vs Aus, Sobers 23.8 vs New Zealand; what's the difference.

@Paoli69.....Very good point, but i don't think Kallis will mind to bowl 7-10 overs an innings.1 sculp at 30 apiece will do the trick fot him to pass 300 (2/match).

LONG LIVE KING KALLIS It can only been good for Cricket.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by DeKrieket-Kundige

@Paoli69.....Very good point, but i don't think Kallis will mind to bowl 7-10 overs an innings.1 sculp at 30 apiece will do the trick fot him to pass 300 (2/match).

But how many matches will he play. He may pick up a back problem and not bowl again!

I still don't get what you have based this handicap on? Your posts don't make a huge amount of sense, and it doesn't help me in taking it seriously when you keep throwing out comments like

"Kallis is King"

So without all the Kallis loving stuff, what does your system actually do?

You also have to admit that a 100 vs Bangladesh should never be rated is highly as a 100 vs Oz, surely?

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Occasional Fan

Just looking at the world XI, though, and recalling references made during the northern summer to the best test series ever (not by me: by various well-informed commentators including Richie Benaud), does it seem odd to anyone else that there are no Englishmen in the line-up?

I agree that his summer's Ashes series was dramatic, and perhaps one of the more exciting Ashes series of recent times. However, it is uncharacteristically Anglo-centric of you OF to suggest it was even close to being one of the 'best series ever'! You quote Benaud, who in my view is one of the most biased and blinkered commentators around, and often comes out with unsubstantiated hyperbole to bump up the TV ratings or sell more books. He typifies the mindset and the attitude of 1960s and 70s MCC; for them, if it was not being played by England or Australia (or Apartheid South Africa) it was not cricket - hence their shocking attiude and actions in the D'Oliveria affair (which, incidentally, I am grateful to you for first educating me on!). I often find Benaud's ignorance of cricket history, trends, players and strategies from other countries shocking for a man in his position. In fact, sometimes it could feel like I know more about Sri Lankan and Indian cricket (let alone Pakistan) then this so-called expert.

In addition, how does mere participation in a dramtic series or in a closely fought encounter make a player great or render him eligible for inclusion in a World XI based on career performance, not current form? Surely it is performance over a career of many years that would merit such an inclusion; most of England's team, and all their good players are young and have their best days ahead of them. As such, whilst many of them might make cases for selection for a World XI (based on career results alone) in ten years time, they certainly do not make one now.

Having said all that, I agree with FF that a ratings system which rates current players against former players based on career averages alone, is fundamentally flawed. For instance, Kallis may have better bowling stats than Flintoff over the entirety of their careers right now; however, no sane person would throw the ball to Kallis if Flintoff is around! This is because Flintoff's career as a top-grade fast bowler has just begun whilst Kallis' is effectively over. A comparison based on career stats to date is thus fundamentally flawed; a bit like comparing a 18 year old future Noble Laureate and eventually world-renowned Physicist with a 55 year old very mediocre Physics researcher: the latter may know more at this point in time, but surely a comparison now is unfair and at the wrong point in time!

This is why the ICC rankings provide a much better basis for discussion in many different ways, as they take into account current form, as well as career results to date. In addition they also give appropriate weighting to strength of opposition, nature of encounter and the impact of the contribution. In those rankings we rightly see many Englishmen featuring prominently near the top ten with both bat and ball.

Originally Posted by Occasional Fan

And doesn't Shane Warne look a bit out of place at 12th man?

Perhaps he does OF, but it is certainly not unusual to prefer Murali to Warne; the former is statistically more effective, and the type of likeable and humble character that many neutrals find easy to warm to, and in fact prefer to Warne's perceived arrogance and showbiz lifestyle. I would say that a strong case can be made for either preference, though my vote, currently, would go for Warne too.

[John]

Originally Posted by Maranello

Having said all that, I agree with FF that a ratings system which rates current players against former players based on career averages alone, is fundamentally flawed. For instance, Kallis may have better bowling stats than Flintoff over the entirety of their careers right now; however, no sane person would throw the ball to Kallis if Flintoff is around! This is because Flintoff's career as a top-grade fast bowler has just begun whilst Kallis' is effectively over. A comparison based on career stats to date is thus fundamentally flawed; a bit like comparing a 18 year old future Noble Laureate and eventually world-renowned Physicist with a 55 year old very mediocre Physics researcher: the latter may know more at this point in time, but surely a comparison now is unfair and at the wrong point in time!

Some of this is quite correct but is "fundemnetally flawed" in places. You are quite correct that Flintoff will turn out as the better bowler but you talk as if he is 22 no he is only two years younger than Kallis they are the same era. This is why I pointed out Flintoff has got 2 five wicket hauls and Kallis has 4 while other bowling allrounders have loads more. So Flintoff may reach something like 15 but we don't know that yet all we know his time isn't unlimited.
I am not saying 5 wickets hauls tell everthing about a bowler but Kallis is a good guide. Bowling isn't his strength and therefore when you look at Imran's or Botham's figures there is big difference in things like five wicket hauls.

As to the greatest series ever I am against that sort of labelling. It orginally came from American sport the greatest this or that. I thought the Ashes we have just seen was fanatastic cricket and lets leave it at that. But other series can be compared with it India vs Australia 2001. Because what might make one series great will be missing in another grat series I will quote you David Runciman who said comparing the two series "no one has attained the celestial plane achieved by Laxman in March 2001"

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by John

You are quite correct that Flintoff will turn out as the better bowler but you talk as if he is 22 "

LOL - maybe emotionally and intellectually he is 22, or perhaps even 18!

Seriously though, I do strongly feel that Flintoff's best days as a cricketer in both disciplines are ahead of him, and his career as a Test-standard all-rounder is still in its infancy. In that, if in nothing else, he is similar to Imran Khan. Imran made his debut at 17 in 1971, but only become a world-class bowler 8 or 9 years later, after a lot of hard-work and many changes to his action. Like Imran, Flintoff relies on hard work and training, as they both lack the sheer God-given talent and natural brilliance of a Wasim Akram. Hence, those who would have compared Imran to Botham in say 1979 or even 1981 would have preferred Botham, though now that they have both retired a completely difference conclusion is merited. Imran's dominance over all his other contemporaries only truly began in 1982, in the Eng v Pak series when Botham was coming off the back of a successful Ashes and had been promoted (to 5) in the order, but was completely outperformed by the Pakistan captain.. who then went from strength to strength. I would not be surprised if Flintoff's career follows a similar trajectory.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Maranello

Seriously though, I do strongly feel that Flintoff's best days as a cricketer in both disciplines are ahead of him, and his career as a Test-standard all-rounder is still in its infancy.

Fully with you here M. The difference between Kallis and Flintoff is that Kallis is no longer a front-line bowler, but a fill-in bowler. I suspect that he will bowl less and less and concentrate on his batting.

I feel that Flintoff is just reaching his peak as a bowler, and will be a frontline bowler for a few years to come. His Batting also still has much room for movement.

Keep in mind that two years ago (when Kallis was 28) his average was a very decent 49.20...(the end of the 2003 England tour) Now he has an average of 57.... which is amongst the best ever. In the last two years he has scored 11 out of his 22 hundreds.

Flintoff still has time to make a case...IMO

[John]

Originally Posted by Maranello

Seriously though, I do strongly feel that Flintoff's best days as a cricketer in both disciplines are ahead of him, and his career as a Test-standard all-rounder is still in its infancy. In that, if in nothing else, he is similar to Imran Khan. Imran made his debut at 17 in 1971, but only become a world-class bowler 8 or 9 years later

Flintoff best days ahead of him ? I do not know it is a prediction. My prediction is his bowling won't last all that long I think they will over bowl him. In the second Test of the Ashes he and the other bowlers struggled to get the last two wickets. Flintoff has played 51 Tests Imran only played 88 so comparisons don't exactly fit.
Kallis has done it the other way round he did his best bowling early on.Now he can concentrate on his strength his batting. Hopefully he will keep going for a number of years and it won't go like his bowling.
I remember watching the 1982 England vs Pakistan. I was new to cricket and I had heard about this great batsmen Zaheer Abaas. He turned out to be a disappiontment but Imran wasn't. Imran held together his side that series if a couple of other players had done a reasonable job Pakistan would of won. It was a bit like Warnes peformance in the recent Ashes outstanding.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by John

In the second Test of the Ashes he and the other bowlers struggled to get the last two wickets.

There's no seam bowler on earth that would have done any better on the fourth morning at Edgbaston: the pitch was appalling.... offering no help of any sort whatsoever... and even Donald and Pollock or Wasim and Waqar might well have despaired given the odds of success - even Marshall might have found the prospect daunting.

The only thing against Flintoff becoming a great is the physicality of his cricket: it's all about massive effort.. and he must be the most likely candidate for breaking down that there has ever been in the history of the game. The plus side, of course, is that he's a willing student... so if he does last out he can be expected to go from strength to strength.

[DeKrieket-Kundige]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

But how many matches will he play. He may pick up a back problem and not bowl again!

I still don't get what you have based this handicap on? Your posts don't make a huge amount of sense, and it doesn't help me in taking it seriously when you keep throwing out comments like

"Kallis is King"

So without all the Kallis loving stuff, what does your system actually do?

You also have to admit that a 100 vs Bangladesh should never be rated is highly as a 100 vs Oz, surely?

His average "Test matches/Year" is 94/9.5 = 9.89 x 6(if he plays for another 6 years) = 59 + his current 94 = 153 (12000+ Test runs & 300 + Test wickets).Imagine (in this case meaning "something that is not present, not expected to be, but believe") he can stay injury free and play for another 10 years(untill he's 40) and end his career with a Bang: 193 Test matches;15000+ Test runs and some 350+ Test wickets. It's fair to say that he will be around for at least another 6 years, but he must really consider to quit the One-day game after the 2007 World Cup.

Your right, anything can happend, but the FACT is that even if Kallis can get an injury that will end his career right now, he wil still end his career as the "KING OF THE RING" (of all All Rounders).

I'm not going to go into detail of exactly how the handycap points gets calculated, but my All Time Cricket ratings work and that's my secret and will stay that way.

One thing i can tell you with 100% certainty is that there's no other way to rate past & current players against each other, other than this way.

It's like the 'law of 1/3rd', there can only be 1 'law of the 1/3rd' as there can only only be 1 law to the "'All Time Cricket ratings' ( The Never Ending Cricket Truth )".

Broer, if you can't see the light, don't read any of my posts.....Does a 0 against Aus count less than a 0 againt Ban ??? i don't think so (and vise versa)

But because i know you will read my posts, here's the anwer to your question: "What does your system actually do ?"

Let me tell and show you what my systems actually do. It gives all the answers to any question you may have about International Test & ODI players (and Pro T20 in the near future).

Here's the progressive Handycap points (Batting, Bowling & All Rounders) of Kallis & Sobers after every series that they have played in (Qualifications: 25+ Test wickets / 500+ Test runs).

in Brackets Batting: (Inn / no / Runs)
in Brackets Bowling: (Balls / Runs / Wickets)

KALLIS & SOBERS -- Head to Head.

End of Series no 4.
Kallis: --
Batting Handycap: --
Bowling Handycap: --
All Rounders Handycap: --

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 523.35 (25-3-672)
Bowling Handycap: --
All Rounders Handycap: --

Difference in Batting handycaps: --
Difference in Bowling handycaps: --
Difference in All Rounders handycap: --

End of Series no 5.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: --
Bowling Handycap: --
All Rounders Handycap: --

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 898.57 (33-5-1496)
Bowling Handycap: --
All Rounders Handycap: --

Difference in Batting handycaps: --
Difference in Bowling handycaps: --
Difference in All Rounders handycap: --

End of Series no 6.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 445.84 (23-1-548)
Bowling Handycap: --
All Rounders Handycap: --

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1003.92 (41-7-2053)
Bowling Handycap: 435.12 (3571-1367-31)
All Rounders Handycap: 719.52

Difference in Batting handycaps: +558.08 for SOBERS.
Difference in Bowling handycaps: --
Difference in All Rounders handycap: --

End of Series no 7.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 522.62 (30-1-842)
Bowling Handycap: --
All Rounders Handycap: --

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 953.95 (46-7-2213)
Bowling Handycap: 435.12 (3967-1444-31)
All Rounders Handycap: 666.57

Difference in Batting handycaps: +431.33 for SOBERS.
Difference in Bowling handycaps: --
Difference in All Rounders handycap: --

End of Series no 8.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 638.93 (40-4-1327)
Bowling Handycap: 713.15 (2882-1103-41)
All Rounders Handycap: 676.04

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1070.46 (54-8-2922)
Bowling Handycap: 428.75 (4651-1799-40)
All Rounders Handycap: 749.61

Difference in Batting handycaps: +431.53 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +284.40 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +73.57 for SOBERS

End of Series no 9.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 662.74 (44-5-1503)
Bowling Handycap: 640.84 (3390-1336-44)
All Rounders Handycap: 651.79

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1022.56 (64-8-3352)
Bowling Handycap: 444.04 (6179-2387-55)
All Rounders Handycap: 733.30

Difference in Batting handycaps: +359.82 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +196.80 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +81.51 for SOBERS

End of Series no 10.
Kallis:
Batting Handycap: 707.52 (46-5-1682)
Bowling Handycap: 690.52 (3618-1448-51)
All Rounders Handycap: 699.02

Sobers:
Batting Handycap: 1039.36 (71-9-3776)
Bowling Handycap: 521.66 (7520-2860-78)
All Rounders Handycap: 780.51

Difference in Batting handycaps: +331.84 for SOBERS
Difference in Bowling handycaps: +168.86 for KALLIS
Difference in All Rounders handycap: +81.49 for SOBERS

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